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skybobo
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PostSubject: Green Side Bunker Shots   Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:51 pm

Need some enlightenment from the bros here regarding wedges and bunker play.

Q1. Bigger number means more bounce or vice versa?
Q2. What is the purpose of the bounce?
Q3. On hard sand, is it better to use a club with less bounce. If yes, why?
Q4. On soft sand, is it better to use a club with more bounce, if yes, why?
Q5. There was once a pro who said to me, for all bunker shot use the same full swing. In order to control distance, vary your club face as well as how much sand you want to take. Do u agree with this?

Thanks all.
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:00 pm

skybobo wrote:
Need some enlightenment from the bros here regarding wedges and bunker play.

Q1. Bigger number means more bounce or vice versa?
Q2. What is the purpose of the bounce?
Q3. On hard sand, is it better to use a club with less bounce. If yes, why?
Q4. On soft sand, is it better to use a club with more bounce, if yes, why?
Q5. There was once a pro who said to me, for all bunker shot use the same full swing. In order to control distance, vary your club face as well as how much sand you want to take. Do u agree with this?

Thanks all.

Q1. which numbers u referring to? usually the bigger number is the loft of the club and the smaller is the bounce... the bigger the number means more bounce.

Q2. Interaction with ground (grass/sand)

Q3&4. yes.

Q5. depends on individual... this is about the same as the way i play a greenside bunker
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skybobo
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:07 pm

Yup, am referring to the same no. Smile
So more bounce means the bottom piece fatter ah?
How will it help in hard and soft sand?
Thanks.
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smallhorse
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:21 pm

skybobo wrote:
Yup, am referring to the same no. Smile
So more bounce means the bottom piece fatter ah?
How will it help in hard and soft sand?
Thanks.

I carry a 60Degree aka Lob wedge for hard sand and to cross over bunker.
All others, I rely on 56 Degree aka Sand wedge. Same swing and confidence.

Personally preferences, but they allow me to focus on the game rather than carry statistical numbers in my golf bag. bounces etc.

most problems are not the bounces of these wedges is the technical knowledge in using this science to get the bloody ball out.

A friend of my once told me. why bother about wedges. just avoid sand bunkers. lol Which I am trying my best.. a good challenge. A bunker free round.
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Turbo
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:59 pm

If there is too little sand in the bunker (like most in JB courses), better not open the clubface (textbook technique) as one might skunk the ball beyond the green. If the depth of sand is shallow, it is better off using a lobe wedge and address the ball like you would for chipping (square face).

If the depth of the sand in the bunker is deep like those in PGA courses or high-end courses in Asia, you can probably open your clubface and stance in order to make full use of the bounce of the wedge.


Last edited by Turbo on Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:07 pm

the number representing the bounce is in degrees... i guess if the bounce is lesser, the leading edge will be closer to the ground....

More bounce will prevent the clubhead from digging too much into the soft sand. if use on hard sand, the bounce may prevent the club from going under the ball


Experts!!! please correct me!!!
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smallhorse
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:10 pm

I disagree. In bunker, it is important to open club face.
Shanking depends on contact with ball.
In bunker shots theory says take 1 to 2 inches behind.
This is where follow through is important.

Easier said then done.
Bunker shots club face to open.

Objective. Get ball high and out.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:06 pm

The more bounce the better for bunker worse for chipping....

In actual fact unless you have a perfect lie or need exceptional spin (or height) I would not open clubface in bunker, the way the club is designed there is no need...
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jimmychoo
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:14 pm

I love bunker... I love you
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:22 pm

jimmychoo wrote:
I love bunker... I love you

So do I JC, the shot is actually easy if you DONT open the face, because then you have to aim left, alter ball position and do all these un-natural things, when all you have to do is setup sqaure and let bounce do what it was designed for....

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smallhorse
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:54 pm

Sand bunker. Open club face.
Bad misconception. Do try it. Place 2 balls in the sand.
Normal and open the face.

Note the entrance behind the ball.

You will get high consistency with an open club face.

Apologize if I disagree aggressively. In all fairness. It us very difficult to handle sand shots without open face.

I'ved used iron 7. Open face to hit distance.
This save alot of shots.

Normal faced in sand bunker will confuse alot of starting players.
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:00 pm

why would you use a 7 iron for a greenside bunker??
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:11 pm

smallhorse wrote:
Sand bunker. Open club face.
Bad misconception. Do try it. Place 2 balls in the sand.
Normal and open the face.

Note the entrance behind the ball.

You will get high consistency with an open club face.

Apologize if I disagree aggressively. In all fairness. It us very difficult to handle sand shots without open face.

I'ved used iron 7. Open face to hit distance.
This save alot of shots.

Normal faced in sand bunker will confuse alot of starting players.

You can disagree all you like, if it works for you thats great..

If you open clubface you increase loft, you decrease bounce (which is what you need to get ball out) and you raise the leading edge of the club higher which leads to more skulled shots..

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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:21 pm

Recently I just gotten the hang of closing the face for bunker shots where the bunker is shallow....I hit it as if the ball is in the divot on fairway. Worked twice.....100% success rate...as in ball got on green
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:26 pm

Duval_S wrote:
Recently I just gotten the hang of closing the face for bunker shots where the bunker is shallow....I hit it as if the ball is in the divot on fairway. Worked twice.....100% success rate...as in ball got on green

Correct because you are adding bounce... if your ball is plugged the more you close the face the easier the ball comes out....
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DRGjr72
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:43 pm

I think this question is dependent on certain variables. The first one is the hardness or softness of the sand (as mentioned before). This important variable will determine how the club will react when it enters the sand.

1. If the sand is hard and you have too much bounce, the club can skip and lead to a skulled shot.

2. If the sand is soft and there is not enough bounce, the club will dig and the result will be opposite of #1 and you could leave the ball in the bunker.

3. Buried lie or even fried egg..The club face needs to be square or even closed to allow the club to "dig" versus bouce in the sand in order to extract the ball.

Now while there are many variations within these two examples, these are pretty much the two outlying examples of bunker shots.

I think that it takes practice and sound technique to become a good bunker player. I don't know many "great" or even "good" bunker players who do not open to the target slightly and open the face as well. This is a generalization however as there are variables that will come into play depending on lie, bunker condition, talent level, etc.

Gary Player who is arguably one of the best bunker players in the history of the game:


A) Basic golf sand shot - stance is open, left foot facing target consderably and right slightly. Ball is played off left foot. Club face is opened to the right and enters sand about 2" behind ball.

B) Buried lie in the sand - stance is square with only left foot pointed slightly toward target. Ball played farther back in stance with clubface square. Club again enters sand about 2" behind ball.

C) Shot from wet sand - same stance and ball placement as for basic sand shot, and clubface opened to right. Only difference is that club enters sand farther behind ball -about 3 inches- because it will not cut as deeply in wet sand.

D) Uphill shot in sand - same as basic shot except that ball played a bit farther back in stance and club enters sand closer to ball -about 1" from it- player must be extra sure to move club through sand on this shot since it must cut through more sand.

E) Downhill in sand - same as basic except ball played even farther forward in stance -note line going to toe- and club to enter sand farther behind ball- about 3", , depending on incline of slope.

Note that only the buried lie has a square clubface as per Mr. Player. I am not saying the square clubface method does not have merit, I just do not subscribe to it. My proof is in what the best bunker players in the world do and I would say that almost all of them open the face unless circumstances dictate other wise.

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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:19 pm

DRGjr72 wrote:


I think that it takes practice and sound technique to become a good bunker player. I don't know many "great" or even "good" bunker players who do not open to the target slightly and open the face as well. This is a generalization however as there are variables that will come into play depending on lie, bunker condition, talent level, etc.

Note that only the buried lie has a square clubface as per Mr. Player. I am not saying the square clubface method does not have merit, I just do not subscribe to it. My proof is in what the best bunker players in the world do and I would say that almost all of them open the face unless circumstances dictate other wise.

Gary Player who is arguably one of the best bunker players in the history of the game:

Gary Player has spent 100's of hours in the bunker practicing..... as have all the "great" bunker players...

We are dealing with 10-20 plus handicappers here without limitless practice time....

So your statement of "Note that only the buried lie has a square clubface"

If it works for a plugged lie, which is a very dificult shot... then why do something different for a normal shot? Just get the ball out....
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Begbie
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:21 pm

Thanks for the great tip, been struggling with ESP hard sand after rain.. Maybe you can consider a teachin pro position, your love and passion for the game speaks for itself !! Cheers !
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Birdman
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:39 pm

I've noticed the two opposing schools of thought on opening and squaring the face when playing out of a greenside bunker. And personally, I've come to the conclusion that both work depending on how the player swings the club.

On bad days with a swing out of sync, I've found squaring the face works better since less loft means more forward motion than upwards, thereby helping the ball to get on the green, and isn't that all most amateurs want? Out in one try?

On days with a better swing, then I get more adventurous, laying the face open for a more aggressive play at the flag.

We talk about opening versus closing or squaring the face, I don't think there is a hard and fast rule here, just whether opening or closing the face works with the bunker swing you have on that given day. Some swing and chicken wing through contact, some quit on impact, yet others flip their hands, while the better player turns through with the arms connected to the chest in a one piece action. It's just whatever works for the given swing.

I do agree for the the bunker swing less sound, squaring the face helps the ball out for most amateurs with no further need for an open stance. Why open the stance for an out to in swing when most amateurs already swing out to in anyway? It just adds up to double trouble.

Let's not forget that as we take a stand on opening or closing our clubface on a bunker swing, we take that stand based on our own swing and experience out of a bunker.

And I'm sure we can all agree here that no two amateur bunker swings you've seen are ever the same.

As a follow up, I attended a clinic yesterday where Paula Creamer demonstrated her bunker technique to a bunch of lady golfers. It was the usual textbook "lay the face open" technique. But it was layed so much open, the face was almost level with the sand. I was standing off to her right and it looked as if the face was almost pointing at me.

Sure enough, it worked well enough for her, getting out beautifully everytime. I asked her if opening the face that much would be too scary for the ladies to try and if she would demonstrate a bunker shot with a square face. She flat out said no and that was the way she played it, face layed wide open, and that was how she would demonstrate it. Understandable, coming from her pro point of view, but in my opinion, the technique she was passing on to these beginning lady golfers would just get them in more trouble. Skulling, shanking, or just leaving the ball in the sand; leaving the ladies confused as to how Paula Creamer can do it and they can't.

Paula's a pro, and they aren't. Very Happy

Footnote here, Paula said she intentionally plays for the greenside bunker when there is lots trouble around the green. Playing out of the bunker offers her more control over her ball. Something most professionals male or female do on a regular basis on the pro tours.

How many of us here can say the same?

Yes? Then open the clubface all you want. Very Happy
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Birdman
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:52 pm

If I swing like this, I'd open my clubface too. Very Happy



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DRGjr72
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:15 pm

shorthitter wrote:
DRGjr72 wrote:


I think that it takes practice and sound technique to become a good bunker player. I don't know many "great" or even "good" bunker players who do not open to the target slightly and open the face as well. This is a generalization however as there are variables that will come into play depending on lie, bunker condition, talent level, etc.

Note that only the buried lie has a square clubface as per Mr. Player. I am not saying the square clubface method does not have merit, I just do not subscribe to it. My proof is in what the best bunker players in the world do and I would say that almost all of them open the face unless circumstances dictate other wise.

Gary Player who is arguably one of the best bunker players in the history of the game:

Gary Player has spent 100's of hours in the bunker practicing..... as have all the "great" bunker players...

We are dealing with 10-20 plus handicappers here without limitless practice time....

So your statement of "Note that only the buried lie has a square clubface"

If it works for a plugged lie, which is a very dificult shot... then why do something different for a normal shot? Just get the ball out....

Yes he has spent hundreds of hours and from those hours we are able to garner key tips that can be utilized by many. Sort of standing on the shoulders of giants type thing. While not all will see the results he will see, without that level of practice or ability, they can take those tips and attempt to implement them into their own game.

10-20 Handicaps is a wide range of ability. A 10 v. 20 is quite a different comparison and consistency level. I also never implied limitless practice time. I have given thousands of hours of lessons as a PGA professional so I am well aware of what challenges are faced by a teacher with various handicap ranges and the amount of time they practice.

My statement of "note that the only buried lie has a square clubface" was illustrating that from Gary Player's suggestions for how to play from a bunker, the only time he mentioned a square face was in a buried lie. The reason that you do different things for different shots is because conditions dictate that. Part of the challenge of the game. A buried lie in a bunker and a normal lie in the bunker are as different as a 10 foot chip with no obstacles in front and 8 feet of green to work with and a 10 foot flop shot with a creek and bush between you and the green. They are different shots requiring different action in order to perform effectively.

I agree that a plugged lie is a very difficult shot. Do you feel a normal bunker shot is difficult? For a scratch? For a 10? For a 20? There is a difference in ability and perspective on that shot. Generalizing does not do it justice, IMO. I also agree that the first objective of a bunker shot is to get the ball out of the bunker regardless of ability, however you can.

You have your philosophy and apparently I have mine when it comes to bunker play. I also think there are variables that come into play that dictate how a bunker shot should be played. .

You feel this is the best way and I am sure you have research or some data to back that up that position. I politely disagree that it is the best way to become a better bunker player over the long haul.
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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:21 pm

This is getting exciting.....
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smallhorse
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:26 pm

Dear all,
I am not trying to be disrespectful.
On greenside bunkers. Most will say open face.
I tried both and hence try to urge you to try.
It is alot easier to get the ball out psychologically or skills.
Whether bounce comes to play or not, when you open the club face you will hit behind the ball. When u square it you will it the ball.

I blame golf channel for my ignorance.
I ask that you try yourself base on percentile.

You will know. Open face gives you options and distance around the green using iron 7.
Hard or soft. Use bounce. That will make a difference. Because it's science.
I am no expert in golf and bounce.

Try it then put them in forum. Right information to help pol is important.
Skills play a big part. but. I just want people to enjoy.

Hence greenside bunkers. Open face.

You will hit behind the ball not at square.



But open face.
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DRGjr72
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:33 pm

Also just to clarify I have no ill-will towards Shorthitter. I respect that he is a professional and his knowledge base I am sure is extensive.

I enjoy a friendly debate on various subjects and message boards like this allow us to have civil discussions on theory and ideas.

Ultimately discussions like this foster ideas and make us better teachers in the long run.

Beer
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:33 pm

Its not exciting mate, it is exactly the reason that the Pro's do not respond to "ask the Pro" because everyone has an answer...









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