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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:36 pm

DGRjr72, i find your statement quite contradicting....

I do open or square the clubface for bunker shots and both ways I get the ball out of the bunker....

honestly what is the main reason for a weekend golfer to have trouble getting the ball out of the bunker?? I do not think it is the clubface open or close....
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DRGjr72
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:40 pm

weesern wrote:
DGRjr72, i find your statement quite contradicting....

I do open or square the clubface for bunker shots and both ways I get the ball out of the bunker....

honestly what is the main reason for a weekend golfer to have trouble getting the ball out of the bunker?? I do not think it is the clubface open or close....

I am not sure what you find contradicting in my statement?

Both ways can get the ball "out" of the bunker depending on your swing action.

The main reason weekend golfers have trouble getting the ball out of the bunker is their technique or understanding of the proper way to extract a ball is off. They could decelerate, they could dig too much, they could open the face too much, they could be too steep or shallow in attack....Hard to generalize. Each case is different.
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DRGjr72
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:43 pm

shorthitter wrote:
Its not exciting mate, it is exactly the reason that the Pro's do not respond to "ask the Pro" because everyone has an answer...










The reason that I responded was because I was a PGA professional for nearly 15 years. So I think my answer has merit.
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:43 pm

smallhorse wrote:
Dear all,
I am not trying to be disrespectful.
On greenside bunkers. Most will say open face.
I tried both and hence try to urge you to try.
It is alot easier to get the ball out psychologically or skills.
Whether bounce comes to play or not, when you open the club face you will hit behind the ball. When u square it you will it the ball.

I blame golf channel for my ignorance.
I ask that you try yourself base on percentile.

You will know. Open face gives you options and distance around the green using iron 7.
Hard or soft. Use bounce. That will make a difference. Because it's science.
I am no expert in golf and bounce.

Try it then put them in forum. Right information to help pol is important.
Skills play a big part. but. I just want people to enjoy.

Hence greenside bunkers. Open face.

You will hit behind the ball not at square.



But open face.



If you are using a 7 iron for greenside bunker, depending on how much you open the face, what you are achieving is making the 7 iron's high... meaning you can just take a pitching wedge or a sand wedge with square face...

Can we assume we are using a sand wedge instead of a 7 iron???Because the loft achieve by opening the face is quite different between the two clubs
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:44 pm

shorthitter wrote:
The more bounce the better for bunker worse for chipping....

In actual fact unless you have a perfect lie or need exceptional spin (or height) I would not open clubface in bunker, the way the club is designed there is no need...

I agree on this one based on personal experience.

If the depth of sand in the banker is rather deep, I may open my wedge a little so that I would not fat the shot. However, most courses in JB has poorly maintained sand bunker, the depth of the sand is so shallow, I therefore would not open my clubface and stance.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:54 pm

I dun think there is one confirm way of getting the ball out. One way work for others, another way will work for the rest.... For me, I open my clubface all the way, why, i take minimal sand cos i do not know how much or how little sand i should hit.... but such threads are exciting why.. because we have a two pros telling the weekend golfers like me how to play from the sand....Maybe perhaps when DRGIR72 start playing the course around the region, then he might understand that the course standards may not be the same like those he played back in the states.....so he might understand why SH is using the bounce of the club. So the way that work for you, just used it.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:56 pm

DRGjr72 wrote:
shorthitter wrote:
Its not exciting mate, it is exactly the reason that the Pro's do not respond to "ask the Pro" because everyone has an answer...










The reason that I responded was because I was a PGA professional for nearly 15 years. So I think my answer has merit.

Yes my man and I respect that, fantastic, but all you did was state what the "greats" do.... again today I had a 15 handicapper in the bunker and he tried to do all the things the magazines and tips tell him and it wont come out.

Close the face and swing and it cannot help but come out.... it is like a get out of jail free card...

Ok maybe it wont land 3 feet from cup and spin back, but it is not still in his footprint in the bunker trying again.....

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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:06 pm

skybobo wrote:
Need some enlightenment from the bros here regarding wedges and bunker play.

Q1. Bigger number means more bounce or vice versa?
Q2. What is the purpose of the bounce?
Q3. On hard sand, is it better to use a club with less bounce. If yes, why?
Q4. On soft sand, is it better to use a club with more bounce, if yes, why?
Q5. There was once a pro who said to me, for all bunker shot use the same full swing. In order to control distance, vary your club face as well as how much sand you want to take. Do u agree with this?

Thanks all.

A1. Not necessarily. A pitching wedge is from 43 to 48 deg, it has less bounce. A lob wedge is from 58 to 64 degrees, it also has less bounce. Both clubs are designed to be played off turf, to dig in more and have the leading edge closer to the ground. Only the sand wedge, from 54 to 56 deg, has more bounce than both these clubs. Then again, the bounce of a sand wedge varies widely. More bounce for play out of fluffier softer sand, less bounce for firmer and or coarse sand. The most versatile sand wedge is one with medium bounce so you can play out of both conditions with adjustments.

A2. Bounce prevents the club from digging in too deep. This works in conjunction with the sole width, the wider the sole, the more the club glides through the sand. Which is why most who have trouble with sand play should be wary of narrower soled wedges or wedges with special grinds like DSG, C, or S grinds. They are advertised as more versatile for play, but what they don't say is that they require more precise contact with less room for error. Only better players need apply.

A3 and A4. Refer to A1.

A5. There are many ways to skin a cat.
Same full swing, vary the face and how far behind and how much sand you take. Pros - same familiar swing. Cons - Do you know exactly how much to open the face and complement it with how much sand to take to get it to 5m, 10, 15m or 20m? And are we really that precise that we can hit just behind the ball, one inch behind the ball, or two inches behind? Let's not throw in one more into the mix by varying how much sand to take. Very complicated mix of 3 factors.

Varying swing length with same clubface angle hitting the sand in the same position each time with a one to two inch margin of error.
Pros - Setup is always the same and easy to remember with less variables, only have to vary distance with length of swing. Cons - Less versatile as you have the same sand shot for every situation, high or low lipped bunker, uphill, downhill, sidehill or fried egg lie.

The first technique requires practice, practice, practice, along with a good touch and imagination.

The second is more reliable but one dimensional.

The best of both is a varying swing length with varying face angles, amount of sand to take and varying contact distance. If you have that, then your name is Phil Mickelson. Very Happy
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DRGjr72
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:13 pm

Ok so all I did was state what the greats do. It is a tip that could potentially help a myriad of people, not to mention the OP.

I did not see what the 15 Hdcper you had going today was doing action wise, so I cannot comment. Square face action might have been what the doctor ordered, plus the sand conditions or bounce config on his SW might have added to that.

Great that your system worked for him. I think that is outstanding. But is what you are teaching him making him better or just better for today? Will he be better over the long run if he practices?

I don't think Player's tips state anything about spinning any shots back or anything of that nature. Plus his tips are designed to help people not have the ball stay in the bunker, but be better bunker players. His and Snead's tips out of the bunker are considered some of the best ever created. Heck even Els and Player did a couple of videos on bunker tips for better bunker play. I mean ultimately is that not what a tip or some instruction is supposed to do. I have no problem taking ideas from the greats and incorporating them into what I believe or could pass along to other golfers. Is that not what most golf instructors do? Learn from books about theory then develop ideas or tweaks, then create their own style/belief structure.

You accomplished what you are supposed to do. You made your guy better today. That is what it is all about at the end of the day.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:35 pm

DRGjr72 wrote:
Great that your system worked for him. I think that is outstanding. But is what you are teaching him making him better or just better for today? Will he be better over the long run if he practices?

Singapore ranges have very few bunkers for people to practice... also not many chipping greens, it is not like USA

So what I do is make sure that my students have the information needed to help them throughout their golfing careers... this person will undoubtebly be a better golfer because now bunkers pose no fears....



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smallhorse
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:49 pm

weesern wrote:
smallhorse wrote:
Dear all,
I am not trying to be disrespectful.
On greenside bunkers. Most will say open face.
I tried both and hence try to urge you to try.
It is alot easier to get the ball out psychologically or skills.
Whether bounce comes to play or not, when you open the club face you will hit behind the ball. When u square it you will it the ball.

I blame golf channel for my ignorance.
I ask that you try yourself base on percentile.

You will know. Open face gives you options and distance around the green using iron 7.
Hard or soft. Use bounce. That will make a difference. Because it's science.
I am no expert in golf and bounce.

Try it then put them in forum. Right information to help pol is important.
Skills play a big part. but. I just want people to enjoy.

Hence greenside bunkers. Open face.

You will hit behind the ball not at square.



But open face.



If you are using a 7 iron for greenside bunker, depending on how much you open the face, what you are achieving is making the 7 iron's high... meaning you can just take a pitching wedge or a sand wedge with square face...

Can we assume we are using a sand wedge instead of a 7 iron???Because the loft achieve by opening the face is quite different between the two clubs

My apologise.. i am advocating the notion that when u open the club face, you have the tendency to hit behind the ball and get it out to the distance you wanted.

I enjoy reading alot and "listen" alot to feedback.
But I asked myself, can golf be that complicated?

The goal of open face is to ensure that the mind tells the hands and eyes to take sand BEHIND the ball. reasonably wedges.

I am bad with golf let me first put a disclaimer. (and i do not have the right to teach, but the responses are beginning to get complicated)
Understand a 24 HCP issues. It is not the swing, stance, or ball position. Its the complexities of dos and don't. (what I must do to get the ball out?)

I read that some of you posted 100hrs of practice on bunkers. that is alot.
I will avoid them(bunkers) where possible.

There is a reason for open club face. You use them in bunkers.
You do not open club face on irons ( i bet some of you will say that you will open face, but it is not a normal practice). you have great skills, but it is not a normal stance. Not normal.. not normal. Its a ball on hard sand or soft sand.

Dear all, please teach us well and simple. enjoy the game and watch cute girls fighting each others in HSBC.

Sleep Sleep (My last post on this subject! good luck everyone.. peace and beers next time if we meet)
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:01 pm

I am lost....

Open, close, splash, dig. They all work.

No practice, dun expect miracles.

I gave up teaching my wife how to hit bunker shots too with all the std techniques of 'open face, feet point left, weight front foot etc'

I tell her to now just hit it like a pitch but behind the ball and follow thru, nevermind the stance or watever.

Her game is alot simpler now and she takes less strokes getting out.

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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:03 pm

My experience with bunkers is the open stance kills most amateurs not so much the open clubface. The open face is useful for adding bounce and loft for higher shots as i a square face for bunkers with no sand, plugged lies.
Most who open the stance have big problems with weight shift and generally lean back and try to go under the ball. This causes fat and thin shots
I have a lot of success getting players hitting with the right foot behind (closed stance) and all weight on the left foot. This ensures the weight stays forward and on top of the ball. There is also the issue of shaft angle which no coaches ever mention.
As SH mentioned, golf in SG is different to US and Australia as are practice facilities

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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:06 pm

At this point here, I would like to request the mods to accord DRGjr72 a red color nick to indicate that he is a teaching pro now in Singapore. Without this distinction, some unaware weekend heroes might attempt to try and teach him how to play golf thinking he is just one of the forerunners here. Thank you.

titu
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:33 pm

Speaking as an amateur, the reality and excuse is that most of us have scarce little time nor access to facilities to practice all elements of the game. Chipping greens and practice bunkers are the luxury of private clubs, a few of which allow access to members of the public for a fee. Granted, we should take advantage of those few that allow it, then again, we should do a lot of things. Work and family leave little time for practice as well, so in most minds, practice is pounding shot after shot at the range, as many balls as we can in as little time as we can. For many of us, hitting less than a full shot is just a waste of the range balls.

In the end, we are left with an ineffectual short game that leaves a lot to be desired.

We all want to learn the proper technique and play the shots as the greats have taught, but committing the time and practice are another matter altogether.

And that leaves us with less than perfect swings that get us in the bunkers and keeps us in the bunkers. Awkward swings where we seek a patch to help us out of trouble situations with some modicum of decency.

The real truth here is that most of us as amateurs are just recreational golfers who just want to learn enough from the teaching pros to hit the ball decently enough (in our own minds) to take it to the course. We're impatient to take it out there, thinking hitting full shots is all we need... till we land in trouble.

Most of us don't want our swings changed, we just want some patch tacked on to that same swing for added magic. And when when the patches fall off, it's on to the next new patch.

With the cost and time of a round of golf, most of us just want to wring every ounce of enjoyment out of the round, not suffer through an excruciatingly long swing overhaul that leaves us like an invalid on the course. Many of us can't believe that we have to pay good money to get worse before we get better. The belief is that the more expensive the coach, the better he is, which means the more instantaneous magic he can work with just a tweak here and a tweak there, and voila, a pro-like swing.

Such is human nature.

And that is where the teaching pro comes in to change the world, one golfer at a time, helping us to see the light.

Come into the light, for the light is good... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:50 pm

Tituman wrote:
At this point here, I would like to request the mods to accord DRGjr72 a red color nick to indicate that he is a teaching pro now in Singapore. Without this distinction, some unaware weekend heroes might attempt to try and teach him how to play golf thinking he is just one of the forerunners here. Thank you.

titu

Sorry Titu, no can do. Andy is a former PGA pro who has resigned his membership. He doesn't teach professionally too. He's just an amateur now, like the rest of us. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:01 am

personally, i've tried both method of open club face and closed club face... as a 1 year old golfer, i can say that from my personal experience (i have great fear of bunkers), when i'm playing for fun (no pressure), i will open my club face and well, i get it out some times and i thin it some times... when i'm under pressure, i will most definitely use a closed club face and i'm very confident that the loft and bounce of my lob wedge will get me out of most bunkers (marina bay is an exception!)
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:21 am

I am not advocating that people have the same practice facilities as in the US...and to be honest there are peeps in the US who have worse practice access than here in Sinapore..so I am not sure if that is a valid argument as if someone is taking a lesson at Laguna in Singapore their access to facilities is ok (from what I have read Laguna is one of if no the best facility here in Singapore and I am sure they have a bunker to hit some shots from).

@ Short...I never once questioned your ability to provide solid instruction or ability to improve your golfers skill level. If you inferred such from my posts I am sorry. That was not my intention. It is evident that you are a sound teacher and have knowledge of the game. That is evident by your current position at one of the premiere facilities in Singapore.

@ Bird...I agree with your assessment even though my name is Dan not Andy...HA. It is all good. I was PGA member for 15 years and like you stated I am nothing more than a rank amateur. The one difference is that I can call the PGA of America tomorrow and get my membership re-instated if I want to. Right now that is not the case....but you never know..

To all that replied....I am not saying that open face is the way to go. What I am saying is that open face is the generally accepted way to go for bunker play. It is what the touring professionals do..and if they are doing it..well to be honest there has to be merit. Also if they can learn it, so can you!!!! I mean it is not like all of them are Lebron James or Tiger Woods...and it is not like bunker play is some national secret where only the special can get access to the tips.

Bottom line is if you want to be a better bunker player...you will figure out what works for you and make it better...That is what golfers do.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:28 am

Oops, my bad DAN. Embarassed

And don't believe all you read, in my opnion, Sentosa golf club has almost one of the better range facilities, notwithstanding the fact there is no shelter and the net is too close.

Exact same turf conditions as the fairway, and the range balls are piled in a pyramid. Then there's the Trackman facility where you hit from inside air-conditioned comfort out into the range.

Then there's Tanah Merah CC and SICC Island and Bukit locations which are just as good but played off mats.

As for being a rank amateur... Suspect


Last edited by Birdman on Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:40 am

I think Marina Bay has very good facilities, the short game area is very good, except that you have to pay to use it if you do not have a game on that day.

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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:42 am



@ Bird....no worries my man. Andy or Dan..as long as it is not some curse word out of anger...HA.

I just know that earlier in the post it appeared as if my credentials were called into question. So here is my explanation, I opted to resign my PGA membership because I was returning to college to finish my bachelors degree and leave the golf industry, which I did. I also did graduate from UC Berkeley with a degree in Economics. The USGA was kind enough to suspend me for 3 years to regain my am status. So, I am officially an amateur again.

But, I don't need to explain myself just because I opted to voice my opinion. But in order to get some semblance of validity I have to provide my credentials.

Just with an FYI, with one call I could be a member again of the PGA of America tomorrow....all it takes is a phone call.















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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:43 am

eiji wrote:
I think Marina Bay has very good facilities, the short game area is very good, except that you have to pay to use it if you do not have a game on that day.

Best facility available to the public, on par with those I've mentioned with mats for sure, and miles ahead of Laguna too.
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:47 am

No worries Dan, I don't think anyone is calling you out here, but I do think that there will be many who will be calling you up for a game, to see how they stack up against a rank amateur, or to glean some free lessons from you.

I for one am in line. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:48 am

@ Birdman... TMCC has grass range too!!!
Fairway condition with excellent short game practice area

We go practice one day okay???
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PostSubject: Re: Green Side Bunker Shots   Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:52 am

JonL_TK wrote:
@ Birdman... TMCC has grass range too!!!
Fairway condition with excellent short game practice area

We go practice one day okay???

On....

Aiyo... I was just there yesterday at the range for the Paula Creamer clinic, blur like sotong. Bunker is great, green and fringe like carpet, and yes, the far end of the range has great turf to hit from. Very Happy
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