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 How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?

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ethee
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PostSubject: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:26 pm

In a stroke play tourny, how soon must a player lodge a claim against his flightmate that he has grounded his club in a hazard ?

The incident happened on hole 6, the flight cross over and after another 3 holes, one of the players decided to lodge the claim to official. Is this valid ?

Thanks.

regards,
ethee

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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:30 pm

hmmm...but for amateur games ...there is no TV...so how? Does it make a diff

just asking only and as you can tell, I don even qualify to play in tourney with my std...hahaahh
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ethee
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:54 pm

Duval_S wrote:
hmmm...but for amateur games ...there is no TV...so how? Does it make a diff

just asking only and as you can tell, I don even qualify to play in tourney with my std...hahaahh

A whole lot of difference. 2 stroke penalty ; can mean missing the final round.
Plus 3 players integrity in question.

Hope there is someone familiar with rules to advise.

Thanks again.
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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:39 pm

Hope this will help, But I suggest you report the incident to the TD asap. Best you have some kind of witness if not the TD have to make a judgment call. As the marker have signed the card for the day, but if you can prove that they had an agreement to waived rules( 1-3)


Wrong Score for Hole
The competitor is responsible for the correctness of the score recorded for each hole on his score card. If he returns a score for any hole lower than actually taken,
he is disqualified.

If he returns a score for any hole higher than actually taken, the score as returned stands. 9-3. Stroke Play
A competitor who has incurred a penalty should inform his marker as soon as practicable.

There is no time limit on applying the disqualification penalty for a breach of Rule 1-3.
1-3. Agreement to Waive Rules
Players must not agree to exclude the operation of any Rule or to waive any penalty incurred.

Penalty for Breach of Rule 1-3:
Match play — Disqualification of both sides; Stroke play — Disqualification of competitors concerned.
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asahi
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:48 pm

But Capt, ultimately it would be down to TD right? Especially since time had lapsed and tourney maybe over.

scratch
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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:05 pm

Regardless it will be up to the TD, but as i say if you can proof that they had breach rule 1-3 than its a different thing all together. As I read the incident was not pointed out to the player and marker before the returning/sumission of card, if so the "event" would have been solved, ie. change the score before submission of card ! But after submission of card, the complainant can go under rule 1-3 for serious breach of rule that leads to DQ, there is no time limit for lodging a complaint ! as for this case.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:11 pm

No time limit, as proven by Padrig Harrington and Michelle Wie being DQ'd by phone after game was over...

Best thing is talk to opponent, state your case, if they dont agree then refuse to sign his/her scorecard till you talk to an official...
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ethee
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:25 pm

Capt. thanks for your advice.

In this instance, the accused accepted the 2-stroke penalty (official ruling) and the scores were submitted correctly. But accused needs to take this opportunity to learn if there is a specific rule that defines the FINITE time for such claims.

While we respect that rule officials ruling is final, we cannot help but evaluate the circumstances & question the process of the ruling.

Player A made the claim ONLY AFTER 6holes of play. Why not immediately OR even at the next hole ?
Can Player B who was opposite the green (at least 10 feet away) see clearly that the club was grounded in hazard when the ball was lying deep in the rough that is at least 5-inch tall ? Can Player B make a credible witness given his position ?

There are few more points but not nice to state further here. Anyway, the accused and Player B made the cut ; Player A missed cut. Just want to equip ourselves better in the event we meet another similar situation.

Cheers,
ethee




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ethee
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:39 pm

shorthitter wrote:
No time limit, as proven by Padrig Harrington and Michelle Wie being DQ'd by phone after game was over...

Best thing is talk to opponent, state your case, if they dont agree then refuse to sign his/her scorecard till you talk to an official...

Ok, so no time limit.

Can the player refuse to sign the scorecard and appeal against the official ruling ; as in escalating to the matter to TD ? Any risk of DQ for taking such escalation path ?

Thanks.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:47 pm

The TD has final desicion, you both put your case to him/her and he/she will weigh all facts and decide.

If you have not submitted signed scorecard, pending official desicion you cannot be DQ'd.

But, without all the facts hard for us to judge, if as you say a witness is 10 feet away, but the rough is 5 inches deep, if the player touches even 1 blade of grass on his backswing, just 1 blade he is deemed to have grounded his club...

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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:55 pm

ethee wrote:
Capt. thanks for your advice.

In this instance, the accused accepted the 2-stroke penalty (official ruling) and the scores were submitted correctly. But accused needs to take this opportunity to learn if there is a specific rule that defines the FINITE time for such claims.

While we respect that rule officials ruling is final, we cannot help but evaluate the circumstances & question the process of the ruling.

Player A made the claim ONLY AFTER 6holes of play. Why not immediately OR even at the next hole ?
Can Player B who was opposite the green (at least 10 feet away) see clearly that the club was grounded in hazard when the ball was lying deep in the rough that is at least 5-inch tall ? Can Player B make a credible witness given his position ?

There are few more points but not nice to state further here. Anyway, the accused and Player B made the cut ; Player A missed cut. Just want to equip ourselves better in the event we meet another similar situation.

Cheers,
ethee





Since this is a stroke play event, as long as the score is being rectified before the submission its ok. But for match play its different again.
as for the witness(B) is of no consequence, since A complaint was accepted. But than again the player in question could have made a fuss there and then, and call for an official ruling on the spot and refuse to accept the calling. Than the rule official can make a decision in his favor or otherwise.

Suggestion, always mention your score to the marker after each hole ! I guess the complainant knew the rules better, and used the situation to his advantage by mentioning it after couple of holes later, making it difficult for a defense .
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ethee
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:01 pm

shorthitter wrote:
The TD has final desicion, you both put your case to him/her and he/she will weigh all facts and decide.

If you have not submitted signed scorecard, pending official desicion you cannot be DQ'd.

But, without all the facts hard for us to judge, if as you say a witness is 10 feet away, but the rough is 5 inches deep, if the player touches even 1 blade of grass on his backswing, just 1 blade he is deemed to have grounded his club...


Shorthitter, thanks so much for your great advice. You have just made the 2-strokes worth its while.

Cheers,
ethee
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ethee
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:11 pm

[/quote]

Since this is a stroke play event, as long as the score is being rectified before the submission its ok. But for match play its different again.
as for the witness(B) is of no consequence, since A complaint was accepted. But than again the player in question could have made a fuss there and then, and call for an official ruling on the spot and refuse to accept the calling. Than the rule official can make a decision in his favor or otherwise.

Suggestion, always mention your score to the marker after each hole ! I guess the complainant knew the rules better, and used the situation to his advantage by mentioning it after couple of holes later, making it difficult for a defense .[/quote]

Rule official cited that A's complaint was 50-50 situation. He based on witness(B) for the other 50%
Got to teach the accused how to kick up a bigger fuss next time and his right to refuse to sign Cool

Great lesson learnt today from all the replies. Thanks guys !

Cheers,
ethee


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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:14 pm

Just FYI I played Pro event today and took a 15 on 1 hole! (I think that is my record).

Just bad luck, and a bit of bad managment! the only drop option I had was a killer...

I put 5 balls in the water...

Bottom line I missed the cut by only 3 strokes after all that.... a 12 would have been good enough...

Golf is like that.... keep smiling, keep trying and stay positive...
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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:33 pm

Sorry to hear, only way to learn is by experience and knowing the rules well ! Better luck next time "the Accused" ..... but you can do it to others the next time... he he ! Remember this is an arena where dog eat dog !
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ethee
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:41 pm

and68low wrote:
Sorry to hear, only way to learn is by experience and knowing the rules well ! Better luck next time "the Accused" ..... but you can do it to others the next time... he he ! Remember this is an arena where dog eat dog !

Orh ! I will have to send the accused to Uncle Capt to learn liao ! Razz
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publica
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:07 am

18-2b/5 When Club Grounded in Grass
Q. When is a club considered grounded in long grass?

A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-18/


-so it seems for long grass, not considered grounding if club touch the grass unless
to the point it support the weight of the club.
That is what I understand the statement above to mean.

-so in this case even the opponent see the club JUST touching the long grass, it is not considered
grounding unless it is 'resting' on the long grass.

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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:40 am

We are talking in a Hazard...
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publica
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:10 am

The hazard although not in the question, it is implied to mean in the hazard. if not in hazard, then what is the point of raising/asking the grounding question in long grass.
Not in hazard, you can ground your clubs and thus no need to ask this question.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:38 am

Original question!

ethee wrote:
In a stroke play tourny, how soon must a player lodge a claim against his flightmate that he has grounded his club in a hazard ?
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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:49 am

shorthitter wrote:
Original question!

ethee wrote:
In a stroke play tourny, how soon must a player lodge a claim against his flightmate that he has grounded his club in a hazard ?

was waiting for you to reply publica !!! (it's your honor to tee up!) lol!
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garfield
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:57 am

18-2b/5 When Club Grounded in Grass
Q. When is a club considered grounded in long grass?
A. When the grass is compressed to the point where it will support the weight of the club.

I don't play the game long enough to fully comprehend all the technicalities.

One thing I do know is my wedges are at least 400 grams. When I am in the hazard, with my heart palpitating fast, poor hand eye coordination plus the sheer heaviness of the club, unknowingly I err by compressing the blade of long grass (however slight) beause the grass was supporting the weight of the club. So in this case, I have breached Rule 18-2b/5.

I still haven't master the art of playing in hazard, so I try my best to siam it to avoid being penalised. Ha ha.

clown
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PostSubject: Re: How soon must an opponent lodge a claim against his flightmate ?   Today at 4:28 am

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