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 Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre

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dennischia
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PostSubject: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:56 pm

Hi Xiong Dis! Just need some views and advice regarding this matter...

Last week when I started my car to go to the driving range, I engaged my gear to reverse out of my house. The car accelerated backwards without control and the RPM shot way up, luckily I was alert and zham the brake immediately (also lucky my pregnant wife not driving -.-"). I shifted to drive gear and the same thing happened. The car jolts, RPM shoots way up and if i attempt to release my brake, the car will shoot forward, very much like the accelerator is being engaged all the time, with or without brake.

So i got my car towed to the Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre to see what the problem is. Unfortunately, my warranty expired more than 2 years ago. They will be charging me troubleshooting fee of SGD$100/hr up to a maximum of 3 hrs and any replacement cost on top of that. Needless to say, I was very angry and agitated that I almost lost my life yet all they can think of is how to earn my money. However, seeing as there was no way they would concede, I told them to go ahead with the checking.

A few days later, the technician called me. He told me alot of technical jargon and said something about the sensor being needed to replaced every 3-5 years. I got even more shocked as I've been going to the Autofrance Car Service Centre religiously for the past 5 years for servicing and repairs, yet no warning and no mention of this was made to me. I spoke with the technician and escalated the issue to the customer service officer who basically told me that there was nothing they could do. They recognise that its a safety issue but because the warranty is up, they will help me repair but I still have to pay them(at this point all I can think of is, your car almost make me cannot play golf forever and now you still want me to pay you SGD$100/hr to get it fixed).

They told me that their stance is final this morning: I don't care what your reason is, as long as your warranty period is over, you are not covered and you will be charged. It is our responsibility, we will fix it for you but you will have to pay us to fix it.

So now we are at an impasse. I spoke to CASE and is about to speak to LTA with regards to this because I believe that this condition is very dangerous and can happen to anybody driving a peugeot 307 at anytime.

To me, its like buying an Iphone. When the Iphone GPS spoil, battery dead, memory card spoil, I will pay to get it fixed if its outside of warranty period, no questions. But if my Iphone explodes in my face, even if its after warranty period, if I go back to the store and ask for it to get fixed.If I get charged for it, I will feel very aggrieved because it's a safety issue and endangers my life and would expect the store to waive the repair fee.

I need your expert opinions here because I don't know what to do. Should i just pay them, get the car repaired and move on with my life? Or should I lodge an enquiry with LTA and CASE? Do I have a valid reason/case to complain?

For those wondering: I am driving a Peugeot 307 (old model from 2005)











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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:05 pm

I don't think you have a case. Cos cars being cars, faults are alway there. Just depending on your luck to see if you get one with less problem or better quality one.

If i were you, go see if there are any forums around for your make and model, and ask them. If it seems that yours is a one of case, then better to go find a better workshop outside to get it fixed. It will save you lots of money.

No carmaker will guarantee parts that have wear and tear issue. But if your airbag does not work or something, then this is a valid reason to file a complain with them.

So up to you mate and drive safe.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:16 pm

hey bro..sorry about the incident and glad no one is hurt.

I'd advise you to pay first and get the car fixed, because safety is no. 1. Plus, this will give you higher ground for what you can do next

next, you should raise this issue to the auto safety authority (is LTA the one?), write official letter to peugeot to inquire about the safety issue. Finally, you should writwrite to the ST forum (GR is read by golfers only lor...) to warn other Peugeot car users to check their cars and put pressure on Peugeot to own up. this is assuming Peugeot has done anything to inform their customers.

Remember what happened to Toyota in USA? their camry or some other models had a bug in their chip and caused the accelerator pedal to go out of control. People died as a result and some people went to jail because wrongly accused of speeding/crashing on others. Toyota got sued and has to pay millions of dollars. US congress even launch a safety inquiry on Toyota.

It's not just about the people driving the 307 but others who could be hit by a car running out of control.

Do the right thing bro...best of luck.
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watermyforrest
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:20 pm

pushslice wrote:
hey bro..sorry about the incident and glad no one is hurt.

I'd advise you to pay first and get the car fixed, because safety is no. 1. Plus, this will give you higher ground for what you can do next

next, you should raise this issue to the auto safety authority (is LTA the one?), write official letter to peugeot to inquire about the safety issue. Finally, you should writwrite to the ST forum (GR is read by golfers only lor...) to warn other Peugeot car users to check their cars and put pressure on Peugeot to own up. this is assuming Peugeot has done anything to inform their customers.

Remember what happened to Toyota in USA? their camry or some other models had a bug in their chip and caused the accelerator pedal to go out of control. People died as a result and some people went to jail because wrongly accused of speeding/crashing on others. Toyota got sued and has to pay millions of dollars. US congress even launch a safety inquiry on Toyota.

It's not just about the people driving the 307 but others who could be hit by a car running out of control.

Do the right thing bro...best of luck.

+1
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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:22 pm

Its not so much a wear and tear issue but more of an electronical fault issue that cannot be detected beforehand (unlike brakepads etc). I'm not a technical guy but its like the sensor just suddenly become faulty without any form of notification. I don't think it can be picked up as I've just went for car service and such problem wasn't reflected. If engine stalls or my aircon not working all those i would gladly pay la ( 1.7k T_T) but if it technical faults that endangers the driver I just cannot accept (like the airbags you mention) T_T.

Isn't it very dangerous to drive a car without knowing that one day you wake up your car will accelerate and ram into the front gate? But I guess thats life T_T any similarities to draw here and the toyota issue earlier?

But yea I think eventually I'll just give in and find a workshop I guess..problem is peugeot car hard to find workshop that can fix..heheh you got any kang tao?



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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:32 pm

actually I've spoken with CASE on this and they believe I have a valid case and advised me to get it checked at VICOM first, get an independant look at the car to boost my case.

I called LTA already to checked out if any recalls has been made for this particular model.
They got back to me and say no. I asked if there was anyway they could help but they said that the car belongs to me, and the onus is on me to make sure that the car is safe to drive on the road. Anything else just settle myself with Peugeot.

I called LTA again (poh that I get a more helpful officer hehe) and they mentioned that they will forward the case to the engineering side and will get back to me again.

Yes the toyota issue came to my mind but do you guys think its too much of a hassle, and would anything be done in Singapore?

I would like to write to ST forum la..but I doubt they will publish it due to my poor writing skills haha . Should i get it fixed with peugeot or just bring it out to other mechanics like duffader suggested?

Anyway those driving 307 just take extra care because I've read online that this particular model from 2003 - 2008 is very prone to electronic faults Sad

Edit: I've actually referenced the toyota case to the technician..but he say the toyota case happens when the car is moving but the situation I am facing happened once I start the car and not when driving so not comparable :/


Last edited by dennischia on Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fatboy
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:33 pm

Glad that you and your family is safe but the car is a moving time bomb.

Like duffader advised, it is good to log into the Peugeot forum to see if yours is a common problem among the 307 owners.

If authorised workshops is charging too expensive, there is always a number of 'outside' workshops that can repair it 'better' and at 'reasonable' charges.

I have similar problem with my car when it was abt 5 years old; the problem was dirty throttle body that causes the RPM to ram up even when I am not steping the accelerator and sometimes I have trouble braking it as well on the road at traffic lights.

The authorised workshop advised me that the warranty was up and everything they do to my car (checking for problems, resolve the problems, etc) need money and it is BIG money. Crying or Very sad

For safety, I disconnect the ECU cable to reset it and then goes to the workshop to get the trottle body clean up for only S$ 50/-.

But my car is not a 307 or Peugeot. Cool

Try to get your car fix first for you and your family safety then decide what you want to do.

However, I agree that warranty from car distributors are limited and exclude wear and tear and other problems that it 'unknown' and they can decline any claims for reasons known to them only.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:34 pm

bro, if you go to non-peugeot workshop, they will not own up to later problems if it's not fixed. Accountability must lie on Peugeot. Dont scrimp on safety. the letter to ST may pressure them to reimburse you for the cost.
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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:40 pm

wa...ahah if go back to peugeot I feel abit lau kui u know..hahah cause i complain so much in the end still go back to them and repair..like abit lose face T_T

Fatboy, hmm they charging me 700 dollars without the troubleshooting fee , 50 dollars is a bargain man! T_T. The customer service officer did say he will give me "special price" but i declined because I was quite adamant that they be responsible. Now good horse have to go back eat grass..sian..T_T
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Fatboy
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:54 pm

dennischia wrote:
wa...ahah if go back to peugeot I feel abit lau kui u know..hahah cause i complain so much in the end still go back to them and repair..like abit lose face T_T

Fatboy, hmm they charging me 700 dollars without the troubleshooting fee , 50 dollars is a bargain man! T_T. The customer service officer did say he will give me "special price" but i declined because I was quite adamant that they be responsible. Now good horse have to go back eat grass..sian..T_T

For 'outside' workshops, don't go to anyone but find out from the forum the 'official' unauthorised workshops for general repair and modification. There is always a few for different brand and mix of car.

For much older cars, the carb do get dirty and so need to be clean; same for newer petrol cars that it using fuel injector with trottle body if I am not wrong.

I think fixing the problem first is my choice then decide later what to do after the repair or you are driving with fear everyday (believe me, I know your feeling from my own experience). Laughing

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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:58 pm

lol i confirm won't be touching that car at the state it is now (still want to play golf in a healthy state).. I had it towed to the service centre. I did try driving there la..but exiting my house already take more than 5 mins (just reverse only) then when trying to place the car swee swee for the tow truck, my car made some crazy sounds, RPM go way high like 3/4 of the meter. I release brake, car zoom a few metres forward each time. I think my neighbours think i driving ferrari, make so much noise.
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:51 pm

Dealt with AutoFrance before and they are really lousy, one problem I have to go back so many times and give me bullshit answers.

Sad to say this is Authorise Dealers, the have the upper hand.

You said that the sensor NEED to change every 3-5 years. Is this in the service manual or a assumption from the technican? If it is in the service manual, they should have change it during one of the servicing in year 3 to 5. if it is not in the service manual, what makes the technican say that? is it something that he come across many times? if it is, then this is a safety issue.

Look for Charlie, I think he is the GM of AutoFrance. but not sure if he is still there of if he will do anything. Better than talking to the advisors that just think of coverng their own ass.
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:08 pm

I think you are kind of stuck here. But with money, a lot can be done. If your car is serviced by them, you may file a civil suit against them for negligience and endangering your life. If their claim is the part cannot be tested and failure is hazardous then you can file the lawsuit against the automaker such as in the case of Toyota. I suggest taking it up against the service centre first.

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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:11 pm

weesern, i think the technician let it slip but I think it will be classified as an assumption. Because I was asking him "how long usually before those problem crops up in the cars?" he replied "cannot be determined.usually they last between 3-5 years". I followed up with another question "so are you saying all those peugeot cars on the road will encounter this problem within 3-5 years?" and he dodged the question.

When i highlighted this 3-5 years thing to his senior customer officer he replied: " our technician shouldn't say that." then I asked if many cars have experienced this same problem, he replied " I cannot tell you that. But you are the first to have been escalated to my level".

Now i'm trying to write a letter to STforums as suggested by one of the hia dis here hopefully they publish it and I can get an explanation from Peugeot.

I'm not going to sue because I don't think the cost will be worth it. I'm thinking of consulting "unofficial" legal advice though(got some lawyers friends maybe free to lim kopi haha), just to know where I stand.

My car is serviced all along by them for 6 years T_T


Last edited by dennischia on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:18 pm

FYI, I am impressed with Mazda though. My car had trouble with ignition a couple years back and they changed my ignition coils. However, the problem persisted and they waived all subsequent checks and part replacements(PCM, ecu
, sensors etc etc) I think my entire car beside the body is new now.

I also had an ignition coil failure after a year(the new one). Though the warranty is only for 6mths, they agreed that a year is kind of below avg life and told me they would write to Japan. I subsequently got a cheque for labour and parts refunded.

However, their price is 30% more expensive than outside though....


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simoner
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:19 pm

I was just calling AutoFrance up to fix the 1st servicing for my car when I read your article. Being a kaypoh, I read your article to the sales person who sold me my car, and his advice is try to look up for your salesperson (hopefully he's still there). They might be of help. Apparently, this is quite common for P307.

Anyway, thanks for the heads up and warning.

I used to drive a Renault which I serviced "outside" after my warranty period. These guys did a good job for me until my car was sold when it was 8 years old. The workshop is Round Auto at AMK.
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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:26 pm

thats cool..I feel Japan car manufacturers always have a degree of responsibility towards their products and consumers. Respect!

Simoner, no problem..haha yea i should have read up car reviews before I bought it la..swayness..I'll try the salesperson but I think its hard for him to help la..since he sold me the car like 6 years ago and also even the service centre senior officer dismissed my case, I don't think they will pay me much attention sadly Sad
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andrew-golf
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:32 pm

its always safer to have it done at an "outside" workshop after the warranty period. ask ard for friends who know some reliable workshop and stick to one. it helps and its less than half the price compared to going back to authorised dealers.

when i owned an "A___" branded car, after 3 years, my gear box started having problems. Like yours, my gear kept jumping and in the middle of driving, my gears will jump and car will jerk. lucky didnt jump to reverse.

i brought the car in to the authorised service centre and they tell me its a gear problem and warranty is over. $8000 to change. cannot repair.. i remarked to em.. "wahh A_____ leh!" not japanese car leh. tot A____ branded cars more tough and lasting? why 3 years liao zun zun gear box gave me problems??

i insisted the technicians do a touch up and sold the car away for my "M_________" now.
its 3 years alr and i started going to outside workshops.

nowadays cars dun last... if yours is more den 3 years and above 80,000km, time to change liao.. else burn a huge hole...

jus my fair share...
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billi
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:25 pm

copy ur text to sgcarmart forum and also asiaone forum .

just to give advise to fellow who want to buy that brand's car . is expensive .. $100/hrs .than u charge them lost of use $120/hours .

tks for sharing .
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:48 pm

my car now 5 years old n 150,000km.....

still running strong.....

every 15,000km servicing at "outside" workshop, each service abt $150 without major repair....

my car dun start with "A" or "M".....
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simoner
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:52 pm

slinger wrote:
my car now 5 years old n 150,000km.....

still running strong.....

every 15,000km servicing at "outside" workshop, each service abt $150 without major repair....

my car dun start with "A" or "M".....

Agreed! Personally, I think its best to service at outside w/shop after warranty regardless of brand so that won't get "ketuk" the authorised w/shops
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dennischia
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:17 pm

Thanks all for the replies and varied insights! I have a clearer idea of what I should do now. Thats why golf is such a fantastic game. The community is made up of people across so many industries and experience. Just be willing to ask and you'll be enlightened. Just fantastic.

Anyway, my car is still with Peugeot Autofrance Service Centre and has been with them for about a week already. I told them to halt any work on the car in case I want to bring it "external" repair shops or independant bodies like VICOM to assess the reason behind the unintended acceleration.

I will be waiting for LTA to give me a call and to advice me on what I should do and if there are procedures I have to go through to get attention on this case. I really think unintended acceleration is a big safety issue and shouldn't be brushed aside like this. I have a feeling that it affects alot more cars but the issue isn't highlighted because no fatal accidents has occured due to it yet(Just assumption but the service centre guy seems dodgy when answering if they have encountered similar cases). From what I know there has been several recalls for the 307 peugeot model in Europe but in Singapore there hasn't been any recall for the same model. Any idea why this is so in Singapore?

I am seriously considering going to another service centre outside and has already managed to source for one well received workshop in AMK which specializes in Peugeot cars. The only thing preventing me from doing this is, if I go to the workshop outside, will this absolve the Autofrance service centre of any blame in relation to the unintended acceleration problem(incurred prior to the visit of outside workshops)? Because I really want to make sure the service centre takes their share of the responsibility and don't want a situation where they can just shift the blame. I have not used any service centre besides Autofrance thus far.

I bought their service package also..don't know if I go to workshops outside, they will still service my car not :/

Now I know why people rather pay than complain sometimes. Its such a hassle to go through all the relevant procedures and my week without a car has been very inconvenient thus far.



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peace2903
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:50 pm

Bro, I agree with you!! Make it BIG, jeopardize their brand if they dun compensate!!! I've given up hope on continental cars...
Think go hardball! Complain to head office tt the Sg distributors are not doing a good job!
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:20 am

go to STOMP! or TNP!!!

MAI TU LIAO!!!
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Roystonnn
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PostSubject: Re: Dispute with Peugeot Autofrance Car Service Centre   Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:48 am

Ya, cheapest way thru media n complain..

Thou i m no mechanic but ur experience sounds more like a manufacturer problem than a maintenance issue.

Unless durin ur prev maintenance, they gave u a turbo charge free.
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