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 Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing

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hwdq
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PostSubject: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:19 pm

Hi,

Would like to seek pro;s advice on :

1) left arm and right arm's role in a golf swing, and their sequencing.
2) does left arm needs to be straight throughou the swing? I feel quite hard to keep my left arm straight.

Am currently struggling with consistency in ball flight directions and distance.

Many Thanks, -Hwd
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Turbo
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:33 pm

When you are doing your upswing, your left arm does not need to be very straight. If you focus too much on straigthening your left arm, you tend to stiffen up and poor ball striking will result. And this leads to poor distance. However, on impact, your left arm need to be straightened.
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 5:51 pm

I think set up sequence is the most impt. Cannot be lazy and straight away go to address the ball. Then the arms will naturally do their job and impact will be soft and straight.

it may take more time but benefits are there is u follow the set up sequence. Stand parallel to ball, bend forward. Grip properly, arms relaxed. Proper weight on ball of foot etc etc. Then just swing and by magic everything will work out Smile
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hwdq
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:22 pm

When you upswing, do u use left arm, and down swing, use left first and move to right or all the way use right arm?
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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:08 pm

Quote :
hwdq wrote:
When you upswing, do u use left arm, and down swing, use left first and move to right or all the way use right arm?

I just recently change to using left arm to trigger my upswing....is that correct?
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Turbo
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:28 pm

hwdq wrote:
When you upswing, do u use left arm, and down swing, use left first and move to right or all the way use right arm?

Actually to me I dun think when move with left or right arm. It is a one-piece movement. Wherever I rotate my upper torso, the arms will follow by default. Of course one needs to hang down his arms in a relax fashion and stay relax thru out the whole swing. Remember, soft hands equate high swing speed.

Remember my friend, power come from the lower torso and right swing sequence ... and not your arms. One needs at least 50 pounds of muscle to generate 100 mph swing speed. Your two arms combine are how heavy?

Hope the above helps.
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Winston
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:31 pm

For me, I am currently starting my backswing with my left arm. Right arm totally does nothing. This is because if I use both hands I tend to snatch the club backwards with my righthand and the grip ends up pointing outwards away from my body.

Importantly, pay for coach to see your swing and help you. That would be the best advice I can give you
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:47 pm

I use my right arm to bring up and use my right arm to hit the ball. Left arm is just for guidance. Thats why they call the right sided swing. Hehe
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drawbias
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:12 am

I suggest you engage a pro ........ dont guess. There are good pros in this forum who can help you ...
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Ssquirrel
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:25 am

Duval_S wrote:
Quote :
hwdq wrote:
When you upswing, do u use left arm, and down swing, use left first and move to right or all the way use right arm?

I just recently change to using left arm to trigger my upswing....is that correct?

You think too much lah; just swing the club and hit the ball.... hahhaaa
If I asked you to toss a ball of paper into the trash can, you'd probably just toss it without thinking too much; just sort of gauge the distance/direction and let your natural instinct take over. Might not go in the trash, but it'll be pretty close; and you didn't worry about starting the throw with shoulder turn or keeping the elbow bent or wrist cock; upright or flat swing albino
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:23 pm

hwdq wrote:
Hi,

Would like to seek pro;s advice on :

1) left arm and right arm's role in a golf swing, and their sequencing.
2) does left arm needs to be straight throughou the swing? I feel quite hard to keep my left arm straight.

Am currently struggling with consistency in ball flight directions and distance.

Many Thanks, -Hwd

When you upswing, do u use left arm, and down swing, use left first and move to right or all the way use right arm?


First, it would help to use standard terminology. The golf club goes up in the backswing, and it also goes up in the follow through. I've heard the term upswing used colloquially to refer to both. I can't recall ever coming across the term upswing in any golf publication though. Instead, the standard terms used are takeaway, backswing, downswing, impact, follow through and finish. So, with due respect to my fellow golfers and with their kind indulgence, using standard terminology would assist in what is already a complex exercise - describing the feel of a golf swing using words.

Next, your questions.

1) left arm and right arm's role in a golf swing, and their sequencing.

Books have been written on this main point alone, so it's much too deep to get into it for any level of detail here but perhaps we can skim the surface.

The simple version; from the top of the backswing, the left arm is used mainly to pull while the right arm is used mainly to push. Tiger actually uses the right arm to pull; a variation of the technique.

Delving a bit deeper...

Both left arm and right arm contain what is called power accumulators which store power in the backswing, to be released through impact. The hands (wrists) also contain accumulators as well.

From the top of the backswing, the stored power in the left and right arms and hands is released in its proper sequence. Now, there are different styles of a golf swing which has a different sequence this is released. Some styles omit certain accumulators altogether.

Most coaches will teach one particular style, because that's the style they use. I call it the "Swing Like Me" coaching approach. An excellent coach will help you find the style that's right for you, but this is very very rare. In fact, you will find each camp thinking their style is superior, and the different camps often quarrel with each other. Very similar to how different kungfu styles fight with each other in Chinese martial arts.

And just like chinese kungfu, the key is to find a style (and sequence) that fits your body type. A tall and stringy guy might be better off learning Praying Mantis style, while a stocky powerful guy, the Tiger Fist. When the coach teaches a style that does not fit a student's body type, the result will not be good. That's why you will hear "This coach sucks" from a student while another will say "Really? I find him/her very good actually."

To wrap up this lengthy section, the sequence would depend on the style you choose.

hwdq wrote:
2) does left arm needs to be straight throughou the swing? I feel quite hard to keep my left arm straight.

The left arm does not need to be absolutely straight in the backswing.

However, centripetal force through the left arm will cause it to be straight at impact.

When you address the ball, you are setting up your angles and alignments. If you keep your left arm straight from address to the top of your backswing, the centripetal force generated in the downswing does not alter your left arm too much since it is already straight.

If you allow your left arm to bend too much in the backswing, the downswing straightens the left arm anyways (you can't stop centripetal force), and you now have to ensure this straightening does not alter your angles and alignments too much, i.e. recreate the angles and alignments you want. You've just added one additional element to time and manage in your swing.

hwdq wrote:
Am currently struggling with consistency in ball flight directions and distance.

Most beginners and high handicappers are known for 'flipping'. If you allow your left wrist to bend (the term is 'extension') at impact, you are flipping.



When you flip, you get inconsistent impact because a flip is very tricky to time.

When you watch a video of a PGA pro like Tiger, Adam Scott, etc, watch their left wrist carefully.

In a swing, everything affects everything else. So, start with the proper grip, address, stance and balance. Next, build a consistent and repeatable pivot motion.

And finally, the advice offered above is a good one; look for a good coach. Good luck.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:30 pm

Ssquirrel wrote:
Duval_S wrote:
Quote :
hwdq wrote:
When you upswing, do u use left arm, and down swing, use left first and move to right or all the way use right arm?

I just recently change to using left arm to trigger my upswing....is that correct?

You think too much lah; just swing the club and hit the ball.... hahhaaa
If I asked you to toss a ball of paper into the trash can, you'd probably just toss it without thinking too much; just sort of gauge the distance/direction and let your natural instinct take over. Might not go in the trash, but it'll be pretty close; and you didn't worry about starting the throw with shoulder turn or keeping the elbow bent or wrist cock; upright or flat swing albino

The key for the takeaway is to maintain alignments, angles and balance so that you get to the top of the backswing correctly.

So, whatever trigger you choose to start the takeaway that helps you to do this will be correct for you.

If you use the left arm to start, you are likely pivoting to the right side. That would suggest you have a double pivot swing, characterised by a noticeable weight shift to the right, and a weight shift back to the left during transition.
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Tituman
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:36 pm

Phew.....golf so complicating ahhh... I thought just see ball hit ball. Thats what I do anyway.. lol! Also always remembered my sifu advice, HIT HARD LOOK UP !!!! All don't need to think at all. You will enjoy golf more this way.

titu
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Turbo
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:33 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
[1) left arm and right arm's role in a golf swing, and their sequencing.

Books have been written on this main point alone, so it's much too deep to get into it for any level of detail here but perhaps we can skim the surface.

The simple version; from the top of the backswing, the left arm is used mainly to pull while the right arm is used mainly to push. Tiger actually uses the right arm to pull; a variation of the technique.Good luck.

Bro, how can you be so sure Tiger actually uses his right arm to pull?? Shocked
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Birdman
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:26 pm

Turbo wrote:


Remember my friend, power come from the lower torso and right swing sequence ... and not your arms. One needs at least 50 pounds of muscle to generate 100 mph swing speed. Your two arms combine are how heavy?


True but not entirely a black and white statement. The modern swing model does emphasize more use of the big muscles, but in reality, there is more than one way to skin a cat. And especially as amateurs we do find creative and different ways to end up with said skinned cat.

How much of the lower torso versus how much of the upper body and arms one uses to execute the golf swing determines whether you are a swinger or a hitter.

The modern golf swing makes one more of a swinger, the arms free flowing in response to the hips, ending in an Ernie Els or Fred Couples like finish. Divots are shallow and long.

The hitter who uses more of his upper body and arms to hit at the golf ball follows through ala Arnold Palmer, or as some say, with a helicopter finish. Divots tend to be deep, more like gouging out a piece of turf. If I'm not mistaken, hockey players and the more barrel chested among us tend to swing this way.

Just because the modern swing model is taught by most, doesn't mean that it's the only swing model. Just ask Arnold Palmer, Miller Barber, and Lee Trevino.

The golf swing has evolved and seen many iterations, all have worked but each has emphasized different mechanics and different parts of the body playing key roles in the golf swing.

Old Tom Morris, Harry Vardon, Bobby Jones, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, Lee Trevino and Greg Norman; all were profoundly successful. Compared to today's modern swing then, were any their swings wrong? Very Happy


Last edited by Birdman on Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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qqqqqq
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:32 pm

Not a pro here but just sharing something i found which seems to answer your question perfectly. Hope its useful.

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:42 pm

Turbo wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
[1) left arm and right arm's role in a golf swing, and their sequencing.

Books have been written on this main point alone, so it's much too deep to get into it for any level of detail here but perhaps we can skim the surface.

The simple version; from the top of the backswing, the left arm is used mainly to pull while the right arm is used mainly to push. Tiger actually uses the right arm to pull; a variation of the technique.Good luck.

Bro, how can you be so sure Tiger actually uses his right arm to pull?? Shocked

Let me elaborate.

From the top of the backswing, most people will use either the left arm to pull or the right arm to push as the predominant source of power in the swing.

At the top of Tiger's backswing, he uses left arm to pull, but also uses right arm to pull as well, thereby adding the amount of power generated.

In contrast, for example, Lee Westwood uses the right arm to push.

A pulling right arm has the elbow angled a certain way, different from a pushing right arm.

Take a look.



When both their left arms are parallel to the ground, you can see the right elbows are angled differently.
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:55 pm

i use to be so technical...nowadays i just swing and hit the damn ball

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:19 am

Some good observations there, Birdman.

Allow me to add some comments.

Birdman wrote:

How much of the lower torso versus how much of the upper body and arms one uses to execute the golf swing determines whether you are a swinger or a hitter.

With due respect, let me just point out, both hitters and swingers use upper body and arms to execute the swing, only they do so differently.

To be more precise, the alignment of the right forearm and therefore the right elbow at the top of the backswing in preparation for the loading action determines whether the one is a swinger or a hitter. Consequently, the sequence of the the release of the power accumulators in the upper body (and which power accumulators) also defines whether on is a swinger or a hitter.

Birdman wrote:

The modern golf swing makes one more of a swinger, the arms free flowing in response to the hips, ending in an Ernie Els or Fred Couples like finish. Divots are shallow and long.

Interesting, I've never heard it described as such before. To be sure, the hitter is still very much around, for instance, recent world number 1 Lee Westwood. And from what I can tell, the Right Sided Swing is more of a hitter than a swinger.

Here's another point of view, which states that the classic swing uses more lower body, while the modern swing uses less lower body.

http://smashgolf.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/the-classic-swing-over-the-modern-swing/

From this, the 'classic swing' looks more like a swinger.

Interesting observations nonetheless. Been a while since there's been such a scintillating swing discussion on this forum AFAIK. Good stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:16 am

Excellent and very detailed posts Lee, especially the illustrations of the pushing versus pulling. Couldn't agree with you more.

The classic swing is of course the penultimate in the use of the lower body as a power generator. The most obvious commonality with such golfers is the kicking in of the left knee to the right and the left heel coming off the ground on the backswing. Jack Nickluas described the swing transition as 'letting gravity take over', feeling like he was just falling into the downswing. He may have felt that way, but I think it was certainly more than than gravity. Very Happy

The major breakthrough with the modern golf swing was the discovery of the X factor which emphasised quieter legs with a planted left heel, generating torque right from the get go through the creation of separation between the hips and shoulders. Not ideal for most of us weekend warriors I feel. It's also somewhat too static, making it harder for most to initiate a proper weight shift, and athletically and too much to ask especially for someone beginning the game. I think the classic swing might better serve weekend golfers that we are in generating power. The planting of the left heel as the downswing activator makes for an easier shifting of the weight from right back to left.

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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:24 am

eiji wrote:
i use to be so technical...nowadays i just swing and hit the damn ball

That's because you like all of us here have already learnt how to. Very Happy

I truly wish golf was that easy, then we can say good bye to all the Harmons, Leadbetters, and Foleys in this world.

I was also told to swing and hit the damn ball my very first time. So I swing, look up to see where the ball went, and the ball was still on the tee. ROFL

You remember your first time? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:22 am

[quote="Birdman"]
eiji wrote:


You remember your first time? Very Happy

Yea.....I was only 15 then. It was after school and only just the two of us......wait!

Wrong first time hor.

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:02 am

[quote="asahi"]
Birdman wrote:
eiji wrote:


You remember your first time? Very Happy

Yea.....I was only 15 then. It was after school and only just the two of us......wait!

Wrong first time hor.

lol!

ROTAN!!!!!!!! affraid

ROFL ROFL ROFL

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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:09 am

Lee, good observation regarding Tiger's pull/push (sounds like a marketing strategy term) and Lee Westwood's right-handed push downswings.

In my opinion, Tiger's combination of pull/push not easy to time and excel as one needs to coordinate both arms together versus focusing on one arm which is a lot simpler.

I believe Tiger executes his takeaway in one-piece motion (i.e. arms and upper torso together) and downswing with what you mentioned, Pull with left arm as well as push with right arm. He once mentioned in his book - "How I Play Golf" that his left arm is his Control arm and his right arm is his Speed arm.

cheers


Last edited by Turbo on Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Question on left arm and right arm's role during golf swing   Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:17 am

Yes, Mr Birdman, all those youngester in the PGA Tour like Rolly, Dustin Johnson, Rickie Fowler, JB Holms, Tiger (not-so young anymore), etc. advocate the fast clearing of the hip on the downswing.

I personally believe that if one swing is too handsy, it leads to less power and less accurate in squaring the ball. I always have the swing thought of my torso coming at the ball on the downswing instead of the arms. The sequence is - Hip, shoulders, arms and club.
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