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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:26 am

After seeing the outcome and dissatisfaction, it makes good sense to use a reputable club fitters i.e. bfg. If not, the outcome is a lotsa money gone and wasted by these goons...
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:58 am

Kns. Read 10 mins still got no idea which shop to avoid. So many range got jap restaurant nearby.
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etoh
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:32 am

Salty Dog wrote:
Now you guys got me worried. I custom fit my ping g15 from there also. Now I worry if I got fitted with the right color. Is there anyway to get a quick confirmation or verification?

I think the best way to confirm is whether you played better with the fitted club. If you aren't sure, you can always go back to the fitter to do another round of confirmation.

I happen to own a Ping fitting center and based on our experience, customers do come out with a different set of fitting result after the confirmation review. And the reason is not that he or she is not fitted properly the first time round. It is simply because the body condition or swing of the golfer may not be his normal self in the fitting environment, given the fact that he has to hit onto the Ping fitting plate, in front of a launch monitor and in front of the fitter. And that is why the review is important if you realize that you aren't hitting as well as what you.
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stagedbrute
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:07 pm

Gray wrote:
Kns. Read 10 mins still got no idea which shop to avoid. So many range got jap restaurant nearby.

The hint given was billion dollar man made river. That's going to happen in Bishan Park. Does that help? Laughing
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DimWit Kid
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:18 pm

Did a search on this forum and find some post from 2009 pointing out which one.... but anyway - I'm curious about the other thing - billion dollar man made river? I'm a bit out of touch - what was that about
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Salty Dog
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:12 pm

etoh wrote:
Salty Dog wrote:
Now you guys got me worried. I custom fit my ping g15 from there also. Now I worry if I got fitted with the right color. Is there anyway to get a quick confirmation or verification?

I think the best way to confirm is whether you played better with the fitted club. If you aren't sure, you can always go back to the fitter to do another round of confirmation.

I happen to own a Ping fitting center and based on our experience, customers do come out with a different set of fitting result after the confirmation review. And the reason is not that he or she is not fitted properly the first time round. It is simply because the body condition or swing of the golfer may not be his normal self in the fitting environment, given the fact that he has to hit onto the Ping fitting plate, in front of a launch monitor and in front of the fitter. And that is why the review is important if you realize that you aren't hitting as well as what you.

I was using a set of mizuno mp57 and was pretty happy with it. Backside itchy went to take lesson and after couple of lessons, the coach asked me if my irons were custom fitted. i said no and he advised me to go get fitted. His reason is if the irons is tailored for me, and if my ball flight go hay wired then it must be my swing. What he said make sense and at that time only very few brand of irons have custom fitting service so after much shopping, decided to go for the pricer one (stupid to think expensive means good). After waited for 2 agonising months for my irons to arrived, that was just the beginning of my nightmare.

I found that the G15 was so different in feel from the mp57 simply because one is SGI club and the other is player club, I was having a tough time hitting it. It took me 9 months and countless lessons before I could start hitting it straight again. I was so frustrated during one of my range practise that I broke the shaft of one of my irons. Even now I have to hold my iron with a very weak grip if not I will hook it to the left......

Could these all because of wrong fitting?
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:57 pm

Salty Dog wrote:
etoh wrote:
Salty Dog wrote:
Now you guys got me worried. I custom fit my ping g15 from there also. Now I worry if I got fitted with the right color. Is there anyway to get a quick confirmation or verification?

I think the best way to confirm is whether you played better with the fitted club. If you aren't sure, you can always go back to the fitter to do another round of confirmation.

I happen to own a Ping fitting center and based on our experience, customers do come out with a different set of fitting result after the confirmation review. And the reason is not that he or she is not fitted properly the first time round. It is simply because the body condition or swing of the golfer may not be his normal self in the fitting environment, given the fact that he has to hit onto the Ping fitting plate, in front of a launch monitor and in front of the fitter. And that is why the review is important if you realize that you aren't hitting as well as what you.

I was using a set of mizuno mp57 and was pretty happy with it. Backside itchy went to take lesson and after couple of lessons, the coach asked me if my irons were custom fitted. i said no and he advised me to go get fitted. His reason is if the irons is tailored for me, and if my ball flight go hay wired then it must be my swing. What he said make sense and at that time only very few brand of irons have custom fitting service so after much shopping, decided to go for the pricer one (stupid to think expensive means good). After waited for 2 agonising months for my irons to arrived, that was just the beginning of my nightmare.

I found that the G15 was so different in feel from the mp57 simply because one is SGI club and the other is player club, I was having a tough time hitting it. It took me 9 months and countless lessons before I could start hitting it straight again. I was so frustrated during one of my range practise that I broke the shaft of one of my irons. Even now I have to hold my iron with a very weak grip if not I will hook it to the left......

Could these all because of wrong fitting?

Salty Dog,

I am very sorry to hear about your case. The moment I read it, my thought was, "Wow, what a bad mistake!"

The MP57 is a cavity back iron, with less offset, more playability, less forgiveness. The Ping G15 is a game improvement iron with oversized club head, more offset and extreme forgiveness (I am quoting the Ping website.)

So, these two sets will definitely play differently.

As you have found out by now, G15 is designed for a beginner. Beginners typically have problem squaring the clubface at impact, typically coming in open-faced. A large offset will help to square the club.

At impact, the center of gravity of the club head will automatically seek to line up with the shaft. So, the club face will slam to a square position at impact.

The trouble is, a better player is already squaring the club at impact, so he needs less offset. The last thing he needs is too much offset slamming the club face shut at impact; the recipe for a hook.

This is why I don't understand (well, more like it boggles my mind) how you were 'fitted' (the has to be used loosely here) for a G15 since you already know how to hit with an MP57.

Your situation compelled me to search for the specifications of the two clubs and merged them together here to make it easier to compare.

Take a look at the difference in offset.



The G15 has almost DOUBLE the amount of offset.

Take the 9 iron. The G15 has 0.2" offset, compared with MP57 at 0.114".

Also look at the loft, G15 at 40 degrees and MP57 at 42 degrees.

Why does the G15 has a lower loft?

Ping website: "Stronger lofts combine with a center of gravity located low and farther from the face to produce longer shots without sacrificing the higher trajectory required in a maximum-forgiveness iron."

So, which means, for the same iron, your shot will have less spin with the G15 since the loft is stronger for each club. It's designed to help beginners get more distance you see. In comparison, better players will seek more spin to make the flight more accurate, so they need more loft, not less.

With less spin, a hook will hook even more.

When a better player moves from MP57 to G15, he will hit low hooks with the same swing.

So, unless you were struggling to hit with the MP57 in the first place and needed something more forgiving like the G15, I don't see the logic of 'fitting' you with G15.

A swing that could hit an MP57 that had to be altered to hit a G15 is a tragedy; if that's the case, I feel for you bro.

Now, after 9 months, your swing has been changed in order to hit the G15. If you still have the MP57, can you still hit a straight shot with it?

In my case, I am finding that the MP52 is starting to have too much offset as my swing develops, with the resulting tendency of hooking the shot if I'm not careful. Therefore, I am thinking of moving on to a club with LESS offset, like the MP63 or even MP68, NOT more offset.
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Salty Dog
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:43 pm

Bro Lee36328,

Thanks so much for the detailed explanation and analysis. What u said makes perfect sense. I was hitting my mp57 well if not better than g15. Reason I changed was because of my ex-pro.

When I went to the ping shop, I was contemplating on the i15. However, the shop persuaded me to go with g15.. They even pulled out the bag of one of the owners who is a scratch player and showing me that even scratch is using a g15.

Unfortunately I have already sold my mp57 so there is no way to compare. In any case, I may buy it back in the future when the price of a used set become cheap in the second hand market. Meanwhile, I have learned to adapt to the g15. Just want to share my experience so if anyone is changing from player club to a SGI club, please be aware.
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ParTee
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:02 pm


Bro Lee36328.... You seem to imply that G15
irons are SGI clubs and are for beginners n
high handicappers.

How do you explain when KJ Choi n some LPGA/
Asian pros using these irons??... they made
some changes to the loft n offsets??
Btw... KJ Choi was not a staff player for Ping
when he was using the G15.


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tohsk8
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:24 pm

G15 is a friendly club but that does not mean low handicapper cannot use it. My friend who is a single digit handicapper surprisingly hit best with G15 graphite regular shaft during his fitting session at Win Golf. Another friend, who is also a low handicapper, use a big cavity back club. Only his wedges are not cavity back. His reason is if he can hit the ball long and straight with a friendly club, why torture himself with a blade.

Many of my friends who are higher handicapper claimed that they cannot use a regular flex shaft, otherwise, they will slice the balls. When I played with them, I noticed they still slice despite using a stiff flex shaft.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:58 pm

ParTee wrote:

Bro Lee36328.... You seem to imply that G15
irons are SGI clubs and are for beginners n
high handicappers.

How do you explain when KJ Choi n some LPGA/
Asian pros using these irons??... they made
some changes to the loft n offsets??
Btw... KJ Choi was not a staff player for Ping
when he was using the G15.



ParTee,

You have asked a very good question, and tohsk8 gave an excellent answer.

I would like to add on if I may.

Firstly, G15 is described as Game Improvement in Ping's website, link here.

http://www.ping.com/clubs/irons.aspx

The term game improvement is used for beginner or high handicapper. There is another version, the K15, which is described as Super Game Improvement.

I quoted Ping's website as calling the G15 Game Improvement; I did not describe G15 as Super Game Improvement like you said. I re-read my previous post just to be sure.

Next, why is KJ Choi using the G15?

This is the kind of question I enjoy answering.

Well, for starters, take a look at KJ Choi's swing.



Compare that with Rory McIlroy.



Do you see the difference?

Look at how the clubs come down in two completely different planes in the downswing.

Like this.



Look at the video, starting from the start of the downswing, and you will how how Rory drops his club head under plane to come in from the inside while KJ's club head stays high throughout.

Rory has an inside out swing while KJ has an outside in swing.

From the tee, KJ will fade his driver, not draw.

This may sound surprising to some, as we tend to understand that inside out is the desired swing path. However, as we know, Martin Kaymer reached no. 1 without the ability to hit draws (requires inside out path), and he has been working on his swing to learn a draw. So, this is not unknown.

With an outside in swing, it is useful to have the additional offset to help to square the club face. This helps to convert a slice into a fade.

And the additional forgiveness sure will come in handy when $millions of prize money is on the line on Sunday.

If Rory uses the G15, with his swing, he will hook all day long.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:06 pm

tohsk8 wrote:
G15 is a friendly club but that does not mean low handicapper cannot use it. My friend who is a single digit handicapper surprisingly hit best with G15 graphite regular shaft during his fitting session at Win Golf. Another friend, who is also a low handicapper, use a big cavity back club. Only his wedges are not cavity back. His reason is if he can hit the ball long and straight with a friendly club, why torture himself with a blade.

Many of my friends who are higher handicapper claimed that they cannot use a regular flex shaft, otherwise, they will slice the balls. When I played with them, I noticed they still slice despite using a stiff flex shaft.

tohsk8,

As we know, a slice is when the club path is outside in, and the club face is open relative to the club path.

A stiff flex shaft cannot change the club path.

So, if your friends are still slicing, they need to fix the path, or close the club face earlier so that their slice becomes a fade.
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tohsk8
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:33 pm

Fully agreed with you, however, the reality is, most golfers do not recognize this fact and are using a shaft stiffer than what they are supposed to use believing that the slice is caused by fast swing speed, resulting in the club head lagging behind and opening on impact.
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pocketace
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:16 pm

Bro Saltydog, take it easy man...what's done is done, don't get too upset bout switching to G15 irons from MP57. Most of us weekend hackers need all the help we can get. I recall when playing with you... you certainly put your frame into good use as your 3 wood is longer than our drivers in our flight and your irons (already G15 then) are reliable.

golf is a game where all it matters is the score you put at the score card, not whether if it is game improvement irons or players irons that you are using, or how stiff the shaft flex is on your clubs. If we dedicate enought time to our short game, the scores will tumble down...

but we digressed... if your G15 irons are going where you wanted it to go... why fret? but of course... there is always a reason to change clubs lah... kekekek
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DimWit Kid
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:31 pm

Just want to say - from bad shopping experience, the last two pages have helped newbies like me understanding more about the mechanics Smile So thanks.
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mengteck71
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:54 pm

Duval_S wrote:
Quote :
poresia wrote:
where is this shop?


i got a feeling ......



let me see...fitting place is in range.....if I am not wrong, I know

I can go for vehicle inspection near by the range? Smile
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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:03 pm

KJ choi out to in swing????
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:30 pm

duffader wrote:
KJ choi out to in swing????

ABSOLUTELY. It's self evident from the videos. It's also been mentioned on the golf channel by Peter Kostis, so it's not just an unknown bugger talking crap on the internet. Razz

And he is not the only one. Martin Kaymer too. Only, he's been working on it in order to be able to compete in the Masters, or at least make the cut, instead of bombing out after 2 days.

Why, does that surprise you? One can play very well with an out to in swing (all the way to world no. 1 in fact) provided it is repeatable and one has learnt to manage it.

Approach shots will hold the green better with a fade compared to a draw. Very easy to hit a fade if the swing is already out to in, compared to in to out.

But in a course with LOTS of dogleg left, like Augusta, that means going home after 2 days for Kaymer.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:38 pm

DimWit Kid wrote:
Just want to say - from bad shopping experience, the last two pages have helped newbies like me understanding more about the mechanics Smile So thanks.

Very happy to discuss the swing as it is a most interesting field. It's like a puzzle just waiting to be solved.

I've devoted several thousand hours working on this mystery (yes, I counted.)

Why does the swing work well one day and not the next?

Why does a fix work for a while and then stop working?

What is the optimum swing? Is there an optimum swing? What is the optimum swing for a particular body type? Endomorph, mesomorph, ectomorph?

What is the optimum way to learn a new swing? To change an existing swing?

And finally, my favourite, how do I hit the driver absolutely the longest I possibly can?

Laughing

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Salty Dog
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:10 am

pocketace wrote:
Bro Saltydog, take it easy man...what's done is done, don't get too upset bout switching to G15 irons from MP57. Most of us weekend hackers need all the help we can get. I recall when playing with you... you certainly put your frame into good use as your 3 wood is longer than our drivers in our flight and your irons (already G15 then) are reliable.

golf is a game where all it matters is the score you put at the score card, not whether if it is game improvement irons or players irons that you are using, or how stiff the shaft flex is on your clubs. If we dedicate enought time to our short game, the scores will tumble down...

but we digressed... if your G15 irons are going where you wanted it to go... why fret? but of course... there is always a reason to change clubs lah... kekekek

Bro Pocketace,

It's been a long time since we last played. Now my 3w is very short. Hehehe. Seriously, these days I value accuracy more than distance so all my shots are getting shorter.

Thanks for your console on G15. U are right and g15 is not a bad club. In my case it just took sometime to get used to. I always use the analogy that mp57 is like a sport car and g15 is like a SUV. Both are good and both get u from point A to point B. Hehehe
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Salty Dog
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:17 am

Lee36328 wrote:

I've devoted several thousand hours working on this mystery (yes, I counted.)

Why does the swing work well one day and not the next?

Why does a fix work for a while and then stop working?

What is the optimum swing? Is there an optimum swing? What is the optimum swing for a particular body type? Endomorph, mesomorph, ectomorph?

What is the optimum way to learn a new swing? To change an existing swing?
And finally, my favourite, how do I hit the driver absolutely the longest I possibly can?

Bro Lee36328,
These are all very interesting topics and I'm sure we all like to know. Can u help to shed some light on them?
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wangph
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:49 am

Well... Reading from it, I would say it's really the owner B has a problem. Let's not kill the shop immediately. I know many of my friends also bought fitted Ping from this shop.

I personally don't use Ping but there was one day I passed the shop and tried their demo iron. The fellow over there spent some time with me and even use the computer compared a few shots with my Mizuno iron and ping. Eventually I didn't buy but thanked them. They understandably seemed disappointed but still was nice to me (Maybe owner B was not there). So at least not everyone from the shop is an asshole.

Regarding fitting. I think the lie is easy to fit (totally depends on the way you address the ball, stand higher or lower). It may not necessarily related to your height. But I'm surprised they fitted it wrong in the first place, unless you later changed your addressing.
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wangph
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:52 am

For those who are still guessing, my guess is Bishan. It's a good idea to have fitting on driving range though.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:57 am

Salty Dog wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:

I've devoted several thousand hours working on this mystery (yes, I counted.)

Why does the swing work well one day and not the next?

Why does a fix work for a while and then stop working?

What is the optimum swing? Is there an optimum swing? What is the optimum swing for a particular body type? Endomorph, mesomorph, ectomorph?

What is the optimum way to learn a new swing? To change an existing swing?
And finally, my favourite, how do I hit the driver absolutely the longest I possibly can?

Bro Lee36328,
These are all very interesting topics and I'm sure we all like to know. Can u help to shed some light on them?

Bro Salty Dog,

Thanks for asking.

Many books have been written on the swing, and as far as I can tell, the work is not complete yet. So each of the topic I listed can be elaborated on at great length.

To avoid spinning out of topic any further, perhaps it would be better to start a new thread.

For example, what puzzles you the most about the swing, or what would you like to discuss the most? Perhaps that would be a good place to start, and probably a new thread is best.
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PostSubject: Re: My bad shopping experience   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:32 am


Surprisingly, it looks to me that Rory also tried to cut a fade from the video.
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