Golf Republic Forum - Singapore's most active golfing forum.
 
HomeFAQCalendarRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
AuthorMessage
punkrockpga
Golf Professionals
Golf Professionals


Posts : 179
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Heartland Golf School @ Jurong Country Club

PostSubject: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:06 pm

There have been some interesting discussions about the importance of good putting and short game vs. long drives. I think that most people get it that the short game is more important to lower scores however I have read a few arguments or "theories" about how longer drives will increase GIR opportunities and lead to more pars and birdies and better scores. Here are some statistical facts that will support the idea that Long Drives and GIR's are over rated.

PGA Tour Statistics

Bubba Watson
Driving Distance - Rank 2nd - 311 yards
Greens in Regulation -Rank 1st - 72.43% (basically 13 GIR per round)
Scrambling (Par or better when miss Green in Reg) - Rank 185th @ 47.15%
Scoring Average - Rank 90th

Steve Stricker
Driving Distance - Rank 110th - 287 yards
Greens in Regulation - Rank 29th - (about 12 GIR per round)
Scrambling (Par or better when miss Green in Reg) - Rank 1st @ 66.27%
Scoring Average - Rank 1st

I think that a lot of people judge the state of their game based on the score alone, and the emotions that go along with good shots, bad shots, pars, birdies, double bogeys and double pars. However we can learn a whole lot more about the state of our game when we take a closer look at the details not just the scores and the emotions tied to them.

Anyone here keep detailed stats about each round as a way to get a clearer picture of strengths and weaknesses.

I us a site called ushandicap.com to keep detailed stats and find that it really helps me understand where I need to improve based on the actual numbers from all of my rounds. If you want to use it to track your handicap you have to pay, (you can't do it living in Singapore) but you can register for free and keep statistics that are very helpful.
shotbyshot.com is also a great program and actually provides a little more guidance.

I could go on and on and on but I'm not going to. Instead I'm going to enjoy watching some Open Championship Golf with my colleague Chris Holloway.

I will share some more Ideas a little later

Have a great weekend!

Back to top Go down
http://www.bradfordprogolf.com
pushslice
Caddy
Caddy


Posts : 5606
Join date : 2009-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:09 pm

Steve Stricker is no.1 on tour from 125 yards in and no.1 in Strokes Gained from Putting, and he's no. 1 in Scrambling too. No wonder he has the lowest scoring average on tour.

however, I think Bubba will win a major before Stricker does. Stricker always look like he thinks too much. Too much pressure maybe. He's had a slump before so he still need to deal with his bogeyman.





Back to top Go down
dmateo
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1103
Join date : 2010-09-19
Location : Singapore

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:34 am

I recently improved my games considerably and keep thinking what went right. Finally realize it's the putting and my 60/56/52/P accuracy. 1 putted a lot these days and this is the make or break for me.

Back to top Go down
tronos
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1121
Join date : 2009-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:40 am

287 yards is a long drive!!!!! bubba is just extremely long. This still proves long drive leads to better scoring. Doubt Strickler will be that good with a 250 yard drive
Back to top Go down
punkrockpga
Golf Professionals
Golf Professionals


Posts : 179
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Heartland Golf School @ Jurong Country Club

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:03 am

tronos wrote:
287 yards is a long drive!!!!! bubba is just extremely long. This still proves long drive leads to better scoring. Doubt Strickler will be that good with a 250 yard drive

PGA Tour average is 288.8 yards.

Stricker can be considered a short hitter.

It's all relative to ability.

For you and I, yes 287 is long. For PGA tour, 287 is short.

Back to top Go down
http://www.bradfordprogolf.com
tronos
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1121
Join date : 2009-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:29 pm

Bubba without his long drive will not win anything (his short game is below avg). Strickler if can add 10-15 yards to his drive without much drop on accuracy will be easily on top, instead of big hitters like Rory winning the big ones
Back to top Go down
dmateo
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1103
Join date : 2010-09-19
Location : Singapore

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:13 pm

I heard once that these guys hits around 80% of their maximum speed. So I guess they can drive consistently over 300, just not doing it for the sake of accuracy.
Back to top Go down
Birdman
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 3798
Join date : 2009-10-09
Age : 51
Location : Wherever my feet take me....

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:45 pm

It's true that the pros throttle back to 80% for the sake of control and accuracy and can muscle it when they really want to. If you've seen the width of the fairways they play during championships, you'll understand why. Like at the Barclays Singapore Open, fairways were two thirds to at most three quarters smaller in width. That's very very tight considering they drive 300 yards. At regular course width, even we shiver at how tight the fairways can be and we only drive it 220 yards or so.

Speaking of Bubba Watson, on the 2nd hole today, he drove the ball 380 yards to the apron of the green. At worst birdie right? He ended up with a par.

Tiger's dominance over the years was because of his magic with the wedges and the putter. We've all seen how he puts it close to the hole from anywhere and how fantastic a clutch putter he was. Noticed how he's flubbed his wedges and hasn't been sinking his putts since he's been back on tour?

Long Drives and GIR is great to have, but it's really a sharp short game and great putting that will help a pro grind out wins when they're not striking the ball well. We've heard Tiger say many times how he's won with his B or C game, guess how?

Gimme a sharp short game and flatstick anyday.
Back to top Go down
Birdman
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 3798
Join date : 2009-10-09
Age : 51
Location : Wherever my feet take me....

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:59 pm

Perhaps the last pairing at today's final round of the British Open will answer the question if long drives and GIR is over rated. Dustin Johnson in 2nd place (-4) is paired with leader Darren Clarke (-6). Darren is by no means a short hitter but we all know that Dustin outdrives almost anyone and has the advantage over other bombers of a good wedge game and is a strong putter.

With the way the winds are blowing today, hands down GIR is over rated. Almost everyone has had a visit to the long grass. As for long drives winning out, we'll have to wait a little while for the answer.
Back to top Go down
Birdman
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 3798
Join date : 2009-10-09
Age : 51
Location : Wherever my feet take me....

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:23 pm

Wind assisted, Dustin Johnson just drove the 419 yard 5th hole, the ball ran through and off the green. Darren Clarke is some 50 yards short of the green.

Dustin played a poor chip and is only 3/4 of the distance Darren is from the hole.

End result, both parred.
Back to top Go down
tronos
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1121
Join date : 2009-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:24 am

Look at Tiger's driving distance during his dominant years. He is near the top. That's y he is so good. He has both attributes. He made the X factor popular!! Dustin Johnson while promising has nowhere the skill of a great player. Phil famous for his short game also relies on his booming drives to win majors. A long drive is more or less equal to a sharp short game. It takes both to win consistency.
Back to top Go down
Birdman
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 3798
Join date : 2009-10-09
Age : 51
Location : Wherever my feet take me....

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:00 am

tronos wrote:
Look at Tiger's driving distance during his dominant years. He is near the top. That's y he is so good. He has both attributes. He made the X factor popular!! Dustin Johnson while promising has nowhere the skill of a great player. Phil famous for his short game also relies on his booming drives to win majors. A long drive is more or less equal to a sharp short game. It takes both to win consistency.

I respectfully beg to differ, you make mention of the two exceptions and not the norm. For every championship won between Tiger and Phil, there have been many more championships won through history by average length drivers of the ball. A long drive is not more or less equal to a sharp short game. Case in point, the final pairing in the British Open, Darren Clarke is running rings around Dustin Johnson. Short game wins out over long drive.

Tiger and Phil did not win big because of their booming drives. They won when their short games were miles ahead of everyone else's, look at the stats.

The drive isn't the only club in the bag. Shorter drivers compensate by being excellent fairway wood and long to mid iron players apart from a sharper short game.

And if your theory holds true, then Jamie Sadlowski and all the other long drive champions of the world should have more than a fair chance at winning on the regular tour right? scratch
Back to top Go down
Pniece.
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 10
Join date : 2011-06-18
Age : 24

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:09 am

honestly , if we see it this way , the caucasians have no issues hitting it long , 16 yr old kid hits it 430 yards on a flat football pitch .

but on the contrary to us asians , distance = a tandem to lift them higher into the ranks.

i would see this as a very constructive discussion .

lets see local players how many of them are in the top.

we have underdog 15 year old edgar oh , who won singapore open am last year but hits it 220m - 230m at max .

but previous champs from either pesta sukan or singapore am or any local tournaments , mostly long hitters. lam zhi qun , jonathan leong , quincy quek , choo tze huang , joshua shou , johnson poh , they are all long hitters trying to hit it longer and longer.

agree with me on this guys , short game can train and practice to be sharp , distance i'll beg to differ.

of course , hunter mahan's duffed chip cost him but still , hitting it long puts him in a better position comparing to some dude hitting 5 irons than him hitting a wedge in.

seriously , which would you rather , and based on our environment , how many guys can tee it consistently above 250 or 260 .

i'll have t say tronos is right about distance being the fundamental in the golf game as everything else can be trained.

Back to top Go down
http://www.facebook.com/nojackdontdoit
Birdman
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 3798
Join date : 2009-10-09
Age : 51
Location : Wherever my feet take me....

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:22 am

Addtionally, both Tiger and Phil drive long but more often than not end up in the rough, playing the modern tour game of bomb and gouge. They save themselves with an excellent short game. This reinforces the point that even if you drive long and into the rough but can't get out, your distance is nullified.

Further, Tiger was only considered a long hitter for the first few years on tour. After that, many young guns inspired by Tiger came on tour and other existing pros adopted equipment changes and gym regimes to catch up with Tiger in length. Tiger himself said so and adopted equipment changes to further lengthen his drives. He switched from a steel shafted to a graphite shafted driver. And even though he wasn't one of the longest on tour anymore, he still continued to dominate, why? Statistically during his dominant years, Tiger made more one putts from twice the distance of other pros. That is phenomenal! Tiger wins by sinking putts, not by driving long.

As for Phil Mickelson, he couldn't take advantage of his prodigious length when he twice played in the Barclays Singapore Open. He didn't even come close to contending, and he was probably the longest driver of the ball at the BSO.

Still, there isn't anyone I know, myself included, who doesn't want to drive the ball further. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Right_sided_coach
Golf Professionals
Golf Professionals


Posts : 856
Join date : 2009-06-24

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:24 am

Pniece. wrote:

we have underdog 15 year old edgar oh , who won singapore open am last year but hits it 220m - 230m at max .

Ummm.....I've been coaching Edgar for the past 3 years and he carries it at least 240m, rolling out much more.
Unfortunately at the moment he is hitting the occasional drive 30m off line

Back to top Go down
tronos
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1121
Join date : 2009-06-21

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:33 am

In the end almost everybody including the top pros are obsessed about the long drive as long as decent players that are also long hitters like Rory are winning majors and bad (pro standards) players like Bubba are winning tournaments. Else they will not be changing drivers almost every year compare to their irons and putters.

Just wondering, the players here with very good iron plays should have an above avg drive, not the longest but long enough. I doubt they have 180m drives, more like 220m, which is good enough for local courses (if play from the white tee should easily dominate)


Last edited by tronos on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Birdman
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 3798
Join date : 2009-10-09
Age : 51
Location : Wherever my feet take me....

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:46 am

Pniece, there is no doubt that long drives are indeed beneficial to a better game. But I think there is one factor that we've forgotten in this discussion - dispersion. At the higher levels of golf, better and pro players have better dispersion, in which case distance is definitely an advantage since as you say, he would be hitting a wedge in from the fairway or with finesse from the rough to the green.

At the skill level most of us play, I argue that distance might turn out to be achilles heel with the unpredictable dispersion.

Perhaps we should be discussing long drives on the three different skill levels as played by a pro, low amateur and the average joe. Three very different ball games and three very different dispersion patterns. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Right_sided_coach
Golf Professionals
Golf Professionals


Posts : 856
Join date : 2009-06-24

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:46 am

How about we consider the complete package of the golfer.
There is also the mental side as well as the tactical and technical
Also there are different types of courses that suit longer hitters as well as shorter hitters
It's usually the guy with the least number of putts for the week that gets the trophy.
Keppel vs Serapong are examples of different courses that suit different games.
All things being equal with two players, I would have to say that the long hitter will have an advantage
Another point to consider is the size of the golfer. Dustin Johnson is a big strong human so it is hard for a smaller asian golfer to expect to generate the power of guys like Phil, Tiger, Bubba etc. Not to say that this can not be achieved through physical conditioning, equipment and technique
End of the day, its the number you write on the scorecard. There is no place on the card where you must write down the distance of your drive, what iron you used or how many putts you had
I believe it is not so much the good shots you hit, but the bad shots you DON'T hit



Back to top Go down
Pniece.
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 10
Join date : 2011-06-18
Age : 24

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:16 am

hi paul .

i partnered edgar in the fourballs against MGA last week.

he slumped since last year but he never gave up , loved to have him in the team always. great player that boy.

hes been complaining to me saying that hes having trouble with hitting it longer and more precise , and half the time he snaps it left into the piss or such but still easily with his iron play save pars .

we all love edgar , the limelight of the team , the spirit that drives us all to win .

according to edgar , andrea has been him in the mental part of the game and that really boosted his confidence . but honestly he has trouble now with the snapping left thing which annoys him so much.

hurts to see the little champ in this state :/
Back to top Go down
http://www.facebook.com/nojackdontdoit
Right_sided_coach
Golf Professionals
Golf Professionals


Posts : 856
Join date : 2009-06-24

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:26 am

Yep, he has been struggling ever since the Leadbetter guys in America messed up his swing earlier in the year. With that came a lot of bad shots and loss in confidence with the driver. He's better now technically than when he won the amateur last year however there is a big mental hurdle he has to fight through now. Last year the game seemed so easy for him but now all the bad breaks and expectations are causing some struggles. I admire him for his hard work in fighting through this slump and this will only make him stronger as a player in the future
Well done to you pniece on your play last week and congrats to Singapore for beating the Malaysian team
Back to top Go down
Pniece.
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 10
Join date : 2011-06-18
Age : 24

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:40 am

i'll see him on the 27th at warren am.

yeah dont understand what hes trying to do now . marc did well but got demolished by qun this morning . 8 & 6 .

if he can do it , he can do it again , but now there will be more competitors and the stake will be higher for him to defend his title .

i wanna see edgar do well again cause we share the same chinese name and it makes me feel proud to see him play like a boss.
Back to top Go down
http://www.facebook.com/nojackdontdoit
punkrockpga
Golf Professionals
Golf Professionals


Posts : 179
Join date : 2010-07-04
Location : Heartland Golf School @ Jurong Country Club

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:32 am

tronos wrote:
I doubt they have 180m drives, more like 220m, which is good enough for local courses (if play from the white tee should easily dominate)

Ok now we're talking!

There is no doubt about it that a longer drive will give a golfer a better opportunity to score. It's what you do with that opportunity that will determine the actual score.
Tronos I don't know anything about your game or your scores or what tee box you are playing from but I would challenge you or anyone else who reads this to try moving up a tee box or two the next time you play, or better yet for a whole month.

I would love to hear if anyone was able to dominate a golf course simply by moving up a tee box. My guess is nope, in fact I have tried it before by playing the red tees and it's just not as easy as it sounds. Yes the opportunity is there but I still had to hit the second shots and get the ball in the hole, and even more important had to make serious adjustments in strategy and mentality.

For low handicap golfer or professional, sure scores will probably go down because of the ability to control the ball and strategize. For high handicap players my guess is that the game will remain the same because distance is not what keeps them from scoring low, the lack of ability to control the golf ball and manage their game will still be as strong as ever, regardless of the tee box.

Golfers, what's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think about what it would be like to play from the red tees? Let me take a guess "ok great, im gonna bomb that drive right up by that green and make birdies all day long."
Sounds good in theory yes, but the drives still have to be straight and the putts still have to fall.

I am of the opinion that far too many golfers are playing the wrong tees and making the game more difficult than it has to be.

Why?
Well, are you a Mastery Golfer or an Ego Golfer? (See the original post)

Have a great day!




Back to top Go down
http://www.bradfordprogolf.com
mizzy
Incredibly Active Golfer
Incredibly Active Golfer


Posts : 2702
Join date : 2009-12-11
Location : golf club graveyard

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:40 am

I'm guessing if i move up 1 tee, my score should drop by 5 strokes.
moving from white to blue ups it by 5 to 7 strokes roughly.
Back to top Go down
golf_snowman
Incredibly Active Golfer
Incredibly Active Golfer


Posts : 2851
Join date : 2009-07-16
Age : 44
Location : Dreamland

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:46 am

Very much agree to punkrockpga had say above....

for high handicapper like me, i notice even if i can drive the ball straight on fairway, i always screw up my fairway game (my second shot and 3rd shot)...which always end up either a double bogey or worse (triple bogey)....

and if my feel for short game and putting is off, i know there goes my game for the day...

however, i do wanna emphase that all aspect of the game (drive, fairway game, short game, putting, hazard play), all required lots of practise, there is no which one is easier or which one is tougher....and identifying individual's weakness and strengthen them is important too.....
Back to top Go down
pushslice
Caddy
Caddy


Posts : 5606
Join date : 2009-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:05 pm

My "good" and "bad" scores from white tee and blue tee are about the same number. But I do get "good" scores more often from white tee than from blue.

Let's start the "play the white tee campaign" in GR! Very Happy
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)   Today at 1:01 pm

Back to top Go down
 
Long Drives and Greens in Reguation are over rated (Part 1)
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 4Go to page : 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 Similar topics
-
» My Secret to hitting long off tee - 180m + roll
» Review: ACE Compression Sportswear (Long Sleeve, Black)
» Fighting Fatigue on Long Motorcycle Rides
» Foo-King-Long Golf Ball
» How long do pike live?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Singapore Golf Forum - Golf Republic :: The Clubhouse :: Golf Talk-
Jump to:  
Friends of Golf RepublicFriends of Golf RepublicFriends of Golf Republic
Copyright © 2009 Golf Republic. All Rights Reserved.