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 Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:25 am

How I Shaved 10 Strokes

Long Game
1. get the most accurate-feedback (ie. 'unforgiving') clubs
2. get shafts which are slightly too stiff and slightly too heavy
3. practice until your swing grows into them

Short Game
1. get forged wedges (much better feel than cast) and blade putters w minimal or zero offset (requiring a pure stroke)
2. practice the shots you hate the most

The more accurate the feedback, the more 'unforgiving' the club. Think of them not as unforgiving, but as precision swing-measuring tools of high fidelity. You know exactly what you did right or wrong, and by exactly how much. It's amazing how much faster the body learns when given high precision feedback,

The more feel in the club, the faster you learn to judge the distance and hit it with the right amount of power. So, that means forged, in both irons and especially wedges.

A mid 90's shooter, I had a decently good long game, but weak, almost non-existent short game. I tend to lose strokes around the green.

So I implemented little experimental project to remedy that and to answer these questions.

How long does it take to learn to handle the baby blades? How long does it take to build a short game and putting from almost zero?

I put in 6 sessions , 4-5 hours each, at the chipping green, and 2 sessions, 3 hours each, at the range with the blades, hitting mainly the PW and 6 iron.

With that I went and played at an unfamiliar course. And shot the best and lowest round of my life.

After a quick lunch at the clubhouse, I went out and bettered the new record, by another stroke.

If those two mid-80s rounds are my new average, I've shaved 10 strokes from my game.

I noted that was with a new shaft in my driver I was not used to, and I missed many fairways.

So, with the rich feel of the forged Miura black wedges and the Newport 2.6, it took me only 6 days to build a short game from scratch.

And it took me even less time than that to get used to the baby blades.

The lesson I learnt from my 1-week project was this.

To grow and improve, aim to reach beyond the current ability.

To improve fast, get rich and accurate feedback. That means the feel of forged and soft steel.

Face your fears and make them your new best friends, until you have 14 best friends in your bag.

(I'll detail more in my hand of god thread.)
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kian
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:09 pm

if onli i haf shams' working hours and pay, i will be able to do what you are doing...

to spend at least 36 hours a week to practice..averaging 5.2 hours a day over 7 days....

i admire ur passion for the game as a social golfer Swing
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nientsu
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:16 pm

i think ah perseverence is needed if you wanna go thru this route.



Got a fren who started golf with blades and blade putter. Wants to be what they call a purist. Trains with a perssimon driver. Refused to try a game improvement eqpt nor hybrids.



His golfing career only lasted 1.5 years. Now he says golf is a stupid and frsutrating game and is now into cycling.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:27 pm

Good for you bro Very Happy

Honestly I think you overstate the role of feedback from the equipment just a bit.

your scores drop simply because of the time you put in on improving short game. Feedback is from looking at the resulting shot, and adjusting your stroke thereafter. Did you get coaching during this period?

Either that or your sense of feel is really super. But If that is the case, you should have been able to improve your short game eith a nice cast wedge, like Vokeys.

Anyways...congrats
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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:11 pm

Congrats Bro....

unfortunately for me, I am quite stubborn...still persist with the good shot retention theory...
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TourSwing
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:16 pm

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beer

The lesson i learned from your writeup is

Lee36328 wrote:

I put in 6 sessions , 4-5 hours each, at the chipping green,

While the new equipment has def helped you , it has also seemed to motivate you to no end, and rejuvinate your love for the game, a game we are all obsessed with ...

Love hearing such stories, and i feel motivated to follow suit! Practice, practice, practice
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pocketace
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:24 pm

I hope beginners in this forum read this post by Lee with a pinch of salt.

Lee dedicated a lot of time to practice. I agree short game is critical

Some PGA pros use cast irons (even game improvement ones) and wedges too, let's not forget that

But we oughta congratulate Lee for shaving 10 strokes off his game. The route he took is not the 'only' route.

Well done mate!
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:31 pm

kian wrote:
if onli i haf shams' working hours and pay, i will be able to do what you are doing...

to spend at least 36 hours a week to practice..averaging 5.2 hours a day over 7 days....

i admire ur passion for the game as a social golfer Swing

Thank you bro.

If I believe in something, then I want to do it justice.

I also like to find the most effective way to get results.

For the swing itself, I wanted a pure swing, at any rate as pure as my body can manage, and not a quick-fix, get the ball flying, and use the short game to save the hole approach.

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:33 pm

nientsu wrote:
i think ah perseverence is needed if you wanna go thru this route.



Got a fren who started golf with blades and blade putter. Wants to be what they call a purist. Trains with a perssimon driver. Refused to try a game improvement eqpt nor hybrids.



His golfing career only lasted 1.5 years. Now he says golf is a stupid and frsutrating game and is now into cycling.

Ha ha, I agree. One needs a high tolerance of 'pain' for this pure approach. The pain, and time taken, can be lessened with good coaching, emphasis on good.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:53 pm

pushslice wrote:
Good for you bro Very Happy

Honestly I think you overstate the role of feedback from the equipment just a bit.

your scores drop simply because of the time you put in on improving short game. Feedback is from looking at the resulting shot, and adjusting your stroke thereafter. Did you get coaching during this period?

Either that or your sense of feel is really super. But If that is the case, you should have been able to improve your short game eith a nice cast wedge, like Vokeys.

Anyways...congrats

My thanks for your kind comments, bro pushslice. It's only shooting mid 80's, so nothing earth shattering really. But the gap of 10 strokes took me by surprise.

No I did not get coaching for this period. I stopped getting coaching a long time ago. Don't get me started on the coaches I have encountered.

As to your point, I have the data to back it up actually.

I was using cast Vokeys up until, well until I bought the Miuras.

I did spend a similar period working on the Vokeys at the range for about a week, and when I played with them, my friend jokingly said, "Wah, short game like Phil Mickelson." And I shot 92. On a familiar course. That was the best I did. It sort of hovered between 95 and 100 thereafter for a long period.

So, same player, two different types of wedges, same training preparation, different results.

I appreciate your comments. Thanks again.
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gomjgo
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:54 pm

pocketace wrote:
I hope beginners in this forum read this post by Lee with a pinch of salt.

Lee dedicated a lot of time to practice. I agree short game is critical

Some PGA pros use cast irons (even game improvement ones) and wedges too, let's not forget that

But we oughta congratulate Lee for shaving 10 strokes off his game. The route he took is not the 'only' route.

Well done mate!

I've to agree with pocketace, it is the short game that is vital.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:54 pm

Duval_S wrote:
Congrats Bro....

unfortunately for me, I am quite stubborn...still persist with the good shot retention theory...

Thanks bro. Good shot retention theory... interesting, I must say I have not come across it. What's that?
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:02 pm

TourSwing wrote:
Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!! Beer

The lesson i learned from your writeup is

Lee36328 wrote:

I put in 6 sessions , 4-5 hours each, at the chipping green,

While the new equipment has def helped you , it has also seemed to motivate you to no end, and rejuvinate your love for the game, a game we are all obsessed with ...

Love hearing such stories, and i feel motivated to follow suit! Practice, practice, practice

Hey bro, thanks!!!!

I know, I understand what you mean, it was in fact very motivating to go try out the spanking new and expensive wedges, shiny black face, all the Miura reputation behind it and all. Yes, I agree.

But the initial shots disappointed me; the Vokeys spun more and bit the green better! WTF?

Then I resolved to understand the way the wedges behave and to find how to get them to perform. That's when the magic started.

The secret is FEEL bro! Hit a chip or a pitch and you get resonating reverberation in your hands and body, almost like a musical note. And as the frequency of the note vibrates through you as you look at the ball flying through its arc and landing, the shot is reinforced in your system stronger with the richer feedback.

If you don't have them already, go get them bro! I am looking at some raw steel Miura wedges already, because their feel is supposed to be even better than forged black Miuras... Just imagine.
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dmateo
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:14 pm

sound similar. I switch to mp68 and just recently started to play around 80's. It's not my first to be on 80's, did it with my cgb max at high 80's, but that's like once in a blue moon.

I didn't get to spend 4-5 hours for a week on the range (i will loose my job). what I did was just consistently go to range 2-3 times a week and hit 100 balls seriously. This meant, do a swing, analyze if If anything goes wrong, and then fix it before try again.
I took me 3-4 months to get used to MP68 from TM R7 CGB Max. I agree on the point of blade gives you more feedback and you tends to be more UNforgiving to your self even when the result is ok since you know it was slightly top of duff etc. The soft feeling when you hit the ball properly is definitely addictive and I'm so looking forward to have that feeling on every single shot at the range and green.

Distance wise, I lost 10-15 meter with mp68 compared to my old cgb max. I dunno why, maybe my swing speed, maybe I'm still doing it wrongly, but it' snot important so much. I just up club by 1 from what I'm used to. For me, distance is not everything, direction and consistency is.

Oh and yeah, my driver is still crap. 200 meter average which is almost the same as my 5 wood (which has more consistency and accuracy).... scratch





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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:28 pm

pocketace wrote:
I hope beginners in this forum read this post by Lee with a pinch of salt.

Lee dedicated a lot of time to practice. I agree short game is critical

Some PGA pros use cast irons (even game improvement ones) and wedges too, let's not forget that

But we oughta congratulate Lee for shaving 10 strokes off his game. The route he took is not the 'only' route.

Well done mate!

Ah, thank you for kind congrats, Pocketace. Great nick, by the way.

I am by now way knocking on Vokey wedges. In fact, in my other hand of god thread, I pointed out I was disappointed the Miura forged wedge did not bite as hard as the Vokeys. The Vokeys definitely spun more on short chips and pitches when I first tried them both back to back.

I have had the Vokeys since day 1. And Mizuno MP 52 since day 1. And I have been practicing with them daily for almost two years. Scores hovered between 95 and 100.

Once i dedicated about 1 week just working on the Vokeys and putter at the practice green. Shot 92 for one time. Scores went back to 95-100 again after that.

Although, I did manage a round of 89 one single time. I was hitting 11-12 GIRs because my drivers were firing and 8 iron was carrying 150m. Just have not learnt how to putt yet, so 3-putted all over the place. Did not know how to chip either, but not necessary because they were almost all landing on the green. So the Vokeys stayed in the bag most of the time.

So, I stress, I am not saying Vokey is not a good product; they are excellent wedges.

The Miura forged wedges I feel actually lose to Vokey in terms of spin in short chips. Run my fingers over the surface of the Vokey and Miura and the difference is clearly felt.

But what the Miura lacks in ball-ripping spin-milling, it more than makes up for in feel. As soon as the ball leaves the face of the cast Vokey, the feedback from the impact stops. The Miuras, in comparison, while the ball flies through the air and lands, the note of the impact is still vibrating through the shaft in your hands. Even my body can feel the note.

And that has allowed me to build a feel in my short game I never had before. I no longer have to consciously think of the distance, and how much to bring back my hands in the backswing. The feel will tell me.

And it only took 6 days. 4-5 hours per day. A total of about 28 hours. 10 strokes.

Now I am looking for raw steel wedges from Miura. The feel of raw steel is supposed to be even softer.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:34 pm

gomjgo wrote:
pocketace wrote:
I hope beginners in this forum read this post by Lee with a pinch of salt.

Lee dedicated a lot of time to practice. I agree short game is critical

Some PGA pros use cast irons (even game improvement ones) and wedges too, let's not forget that

But we oughta congratulate Lee for shaving 10 strokes off his game. The route he took is not the 'only' route.

Well done mate!

I've to agree with pocketace, it is the short game that is vital.

I made par (and occasionally birdie) every time the driver found the fairway.

The iron approach being accurate made it easy for putting.

An article in Golf magazine recently published the report of statistician who mapped thousands of rounds of many golfers and he found that more shots are lost in the long game (tee shot and approach) than the short game (chipping and putting.)
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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:39 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
gomjgo wrote:
pocketace wrote:
I hope beginners in this forum read this post by Lee with a pinch of salt.

Lee dedicated a lot of time to practice. I agree short game is critical

Some PGA pros use cast irons (even game improvement ones) and wedges too, let's not forget that

But we oughta congratulate Lee for shaving 10 strokes off his game. The route he took is not the 'only' route.

Well done mate!

I've to agree with pocketace, it is the short game that is vital.

I made par (and occasionally birdie) every time the driver found the fairway.

The iron approach being accurate made it easy for putting.

An article in Golf magazine recently published the report of statistician who mapped thousands of rounds of many golfers and he found that more shots are lost in the long game (tee shot and approach) than the short game (chipping and putting.)

This is because they mapped it with stats from pro or touranments where the stats are available. I do not think they mapped it with amatuers....

For a pro to win in a touranment, a par is not enough, so GIR and putting is more crucial, thats why the long shots comes into the picture.

But then again.... u are like a pro (theorectically) already.... so thats why you got confused.
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:58 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
pushslice wrote:
Good for you bro Very Happy

Honestly I think you overstate the role of feedback from the equipment just a bit.

your scores drop simply because of the time you put in on improving short game. Feedback is from looking at the resulting shot, and adjusting your stroke thereafter. Did you get coaching during this period?

Either that or your sense of feel is really super. But If that is the case, you should have been able to improve your short game eith a nice cast wedge, like Vokeys.

Anyways...congrats

My thanks for your kind comments, bro pushslice. It's only shooting mid 80's, so nothing earth shattering really. But the gap of 10 strokes took me by surprise.

No I did not get coaching for this period. I stopped getting coaching a long time ago. Don't get me started on the coaches I have encountered.

As to your point, I have the data to back it up actually.

I was using cast Vokeys up until, well until I bought the Miuras.

I did spend a similar period working on the Vokeys at the range for about a week, and when I played with them, my friend jokingly said, "Wah, short game like Phil Mickelson." And I shot 92. On a familiar course. That was the best I did. It sort of hovered between 95 and 100 thereafter for a long period.

So, same player, two different types of wedges, same training preparation, different results.

I appreciate your comments. Thanks again.

this is like a regression & hypothesis analysis: is the feel factor of the wedge evidence of correlation or causality? Laughing

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:08 pm

duffader wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
gomjgo wrote:
pocketace wrote:
I hope beginners in this forum read this post by Lee with a pinch of salt.

Lee dedicated a lot of time to practice. I agree short game is critical

Some PGA pros use cast irons (even game improvement ones) and wedges too, let's not forget that

But we oughta congratulate Lee for shaving 10 strokes off his game. The route he took is not the 'only' route.

Well done mate!

I've to agree with pocketace, it is the short game that is vital.

I made par (and occasionally birdie) every time the driver found the fairway.

The iron approach being accurate made it easy for putting.

An article in Golf magazine recently published the report of statistician who mapped thousands of rounds of many golfers and he found that more shots are lost in the long game (tee shot and approach) than the short game (chipping and putting.)

This is because they mapped it with stats from pro or touranments where the stats are available. I do not think they mapped it with amatuers....

For a pro to win in a touranment, a par is not enough, so GIR and putting is more crucial, thats why the long shots comes into the picture.

But then again.... u are like a pro (theorectically) already.... so thats why you got confused.

I simply prefer to use data and facts to arrive at conclusions. I find I am often wrong when I go based on my biased subjective conjectured opinion alone.

Here's the details of the report.

Golf Magazine Oct 2010.
Professor Mark Broadie, Columbia Business School.
Recorded 70,000 shots hit by players of all levels and ages, from Tour pros to 100-shooters.

"...golfers lose more strokes in the long game - defined as shots of 100 yards or more - than the short game."

'The Golfmetrics database' - the software program he used to crunch the numbers - "makes it clear that, while short game is important, weekend players have more room to improve in the long game."

Quotable quote
"If you can't drive for show, you can't putt for dough."

Here's the link.

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction/article/0,28136,2016196,00.html
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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:12 pm

I prefer believing the real things rather than somethings magazines show.

Nevertheless, congrats on your shaving of 10 strokes.... now come the difficult part, maintain the consistency. But i guess, with your luxury of practising time, plus your knowledge, shouldnt be a problem. Soon, you should be a pro both theorectically and physically. Smile
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:19 pm

pushslice wrote:

this is like a regression & hypothesis analysis: is the feel factor of the wedge evidence of correlation or causality? Laughing


I like this level of discussion.

When a good shot is hit with a cast wedge, you feel it, briefly.

When a good shot is hit with the forged Miura wedges, you feel it, and the feeling lasts a bit longer and is reinforced a bit stronger, because the note is purer (from the more uniform forged head as opposed to cast heads with pockets of air in the head disrupting the resonance of the sound of impact.)

Mizuno has a famous youtube video where they hung iron heads of various brands from a string and struck it to hear the note produced. The forged heads produced a pure and long lasting note. The cast head, a flat and short thud.

So, the feel of the wedge of a well-struck shot provides stronger reinforcement to our system because it produces a clearer, purer note that lasts longer compared to that of cast.

And that stronger reinforcement helps to speed up learning.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:22 pm

I agree, sometimes magazines can be over-sensationalist.

So. here's the link of the professor who did the study, at Columbia University.

http://www.columbia.edu/~mnb2/broadie/research_golf.html
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:30 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
I agree, sometimes magazines can be over-sensationalist.

So. here's the link of the professor who did the study, at Columbia University.

http://www.columbia.edu/~mnb2/broadie/research_golf.html
Professor? GO read the book "The Golfing Machine".... I think it will enhance your theory better!

I really hope all this researchers are like you.. "play like how they say"
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:07 pm

duffader wrote:
I prefer believing the real things rather than somethings magazines show.

Nevertheless, congrats on your shaving of 10 strokes.... now come the difficult part, maintain the consistency. But i guess, with your luxury of practising time, plus your knowledge, shouldnt be a problem. Soon, you should be a pro both theorectically and physically. Smile

Where are my manners, thanks for your congrats bro.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Shaved 10 strokes from my average score - thank you (hand of) god   Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:29 pm

duffader wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
I agree, sometimes magazines can be over-sensationalist.

So. here's the link of the professor who did the study, at Columbia University.

http://www.columbia.edu/~mnb2/broadie/research_golf.html
Professor? GO read the book "The Golfing Machine".... I think it will enhance your theory better!

I really hope all this researchers are like you.. "play like how they say"

Homer Kelley with his accumulators, line of approach, arc of approach, and the 24 components of a swing has indeed done one of the most complete if not THE most complete catalogue of all the variations of the swing.

Where he falls a bit short, in my modest opinion, is his relatively shallow study of the pivot.

It is a pity Trackman wasn't available in his day, or else imagine what else he could have produced.

Just wish the guy could write in a more accessible style of prose though. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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