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eiji
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:04 pm

I can't produce facts over the forum, but if the Miura Rep who step up to dispute my statement can, please do. I would like to see them as I am sure the rest of the peeps who are monitoring this thread would too. And I would stand to correct myself for the false statement i made.

In Miura's website, only the Baby Blades, Tournament Blades and PP9003 was mention as forged in japan.

http://miuragolf.com/passingpoint-PP9003.asp

none of the other clubs mention forged in Himeji or in Japan.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:08 pm

Question,...

If a half of the forging process are done in country A and the other part incl finish in country B then export out. Would it be Made in A or Made in B?

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eiji
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:12 pm

Khorkar wrote:
Question,...

If a half of the forging process are done in country A and the other part incl finish in country B then export out. Would it be Made in A or Made in B?


This is debatable and differs from country to country.

Wikipedia has a writeup on this topic under "country of origin"

another useful article is http://www.donaldson.com/en/supplier/compliance/origin.pdf
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samT
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:25 pm

Khorkar wrote:
Question,...

If a half of the forging process are done in country A and the other part incl finish in country B then export out. Would it be Made in A or Made in B?

Wah KK, you really complicated thinking leh. Anyway, I think the point is that now I know the blades are forged in Japan, besides the PP9003. I think the miura blades are v sweet. Just out of my price range.

Take care bro.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:38 pm

Laughing ... sorry to confuse every one.... as usual la, my messed up mind play tricks with too many question...

Anyway, with all the manufacturing plant in China. Its hard not to go to China. Where all the plant resource and cheap labour it. I am curious if Forging in China would be any different, ie. Mizuno, which i think are made there.

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Vinny
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:43 pm

Haiz.... What a tangle web we weave for we practise to differ.....

Again, does it really matter on who & where the club is forged so long as it produces the desired result....? Are we really going to keep score on which club manufacturer had produced equipment that chalk up the most eagles, birdies, pars & etc?????
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:46 pm

Your initial statement was:

eiji wrote:
Muiras are forged in Thailand too, except for PP9003

Then, it appears you moderated it somewhat by amending it to:

eiji wrote:

...
In Miura's website, only the Baby Blades, Tournament Blades and PP9003 was mention as forged in japan.
....

And this was interesting.

eiji wrote:
I can't produce facts over the forum ....

Well, I think in this regard, Joshua did a good job.




Thanks for the informative videos, Joshua.

Forging is done by stamping on steel billets. And steel billets are made from steel, which is made from combining iron ore with a certain percentage of carbon, known in the industry as 'coke.' I did a project in the steel industry once. Which is why I have industry sources who explained to me in great detail the difference between casting and forging.

I think I will go out on a limb and say, the iron ore did not come from Japan. Cool

And for sure, if there's a factory in Japan and a factory in Thailand as well, the Thailand factory I guess will wins the votes from the members for a factory visit. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:06 pm

Vinny wrote:
Haiz.... What a tangle web we weave for we practise to differ.....

Again, does it really matter on who & where the club is forged so long as it produces the desired result....? Are we really going to keep score on which club manufacturer had produced equipment that chalk up the most eagles, birdies, pars & etc?????

Come, come, it's fun actually.

Miura's marketing makes a big fuss over the steel working techniques in Himeiji Japan, which is a place where the masters made samurai swords. A very romantic notion to link it to iron forging, I must say.

If indeed, the forgings are done in Thailand, it goes to the heart of the message in the marketing.

Now, as a moderator, eiji commands my full due respect. Therefore, I share the following in a gentle, most respectful manner.

As an avid follower of court room dramas on cable tv, I have picked up on a couple of points.

Just for our educational purposes, and for the sake of some diversion (I am bored) let me list them.

1. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser.

In Latin, maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

So, if I say, Nikons are made in Zimbabwe, I then cannot say, up to Nikon to prove me wrong. I must prove Nikons are made in Zimbabwe. Before Nikon lovers get all upset, I am speaking purely in the hypothetical of course.

2. Can't prove a negative

Asking Nikon to prove that Nikons are not made in Zimbabwe is termed as asking to prove a negative. This is an interesting concept - is a fallacy in informal logic - if Nikon cannot prove that they are not made in Zimbabwe, therefore, the allegation must be true.

Excerpt from wikipedia (sorry, a bit long, but very interesting for those interested in logic) :

Wikipedia:

"Argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or "appeal to ignorance", is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to satisfactorily prove the proposition to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and (4) being unknowable (among the first three).[1] In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.
Argument from ignorance may be used as a rationalization by a person who realizes that he has no reason for holding the belief that he does."

See, we learn something new every day, and not just about golf.

What an interesting discussion...
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Begbie
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:14 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
Forging is done by stamping on steel billets. And steel billets are made from steel, which is made from combining iron ore with a certain percentage of carbon, known in the industry as 'coke.' I did a project in the steel industry once. Which is why I have industry sources who explained to me in great detail the difference between casting and forging.

I think I will go out on a limb and say, the iron ore did not come from Japan. Cool

And for sure, if there's a factory in Japan and a factory in Thailand as well, the Thailand factory I guess will wins the votes from the members for a factory visit. Laughing Laughing Laughing

In the industry I come from, we deal with a lot of forgings and one of the ways we ensure sound quality is thru ultrasonics and sometimes x-rays for any deformities or inclusions (such as porosity, slag etc) during the forging process. For the material itself we do other tests like chemical composition testing, tensile tesing and depending on operational temperature, we may do charpy as applicable.

Regardless where these Miuras are forged, be it in Japan or Thailand, it doesn't matter as long as the following are being ensured.

1. Quality system is consistent (in terms of quality assurance, processes and machining tolerances)
2. Raw materials (i.e. billets) are from the same supplier with traceable mill certificates.
3. External environment (i.e. temperature, humidity etc) of the forging house are controlled to be consistent regardless.

If all these variables are made consistent, I dun see why we have to be too concerned where they from.

Correct me if I am wrong, the argument now is not the quality, as we have no doubt abt how good they churn their forge irons but rather their pricing especially if they are not forged in Japan.

Hence, if the local Miura rep has come forward and made clarifications in this regard, unless we are c&$k sure and can prove otherwise, we just have to accept this and move on to avoid any legal implications...

Just my two cents....





Last edited by Begbie on Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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miuraforged
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:23 pm

Miura irons are produced, start to finish at the renowned Miura factory in Himeji, Japan. The initial strike of the billet of soft carbon steel takes place at the Stage One facility, located approximate a mile from the main factory. We are not sure why this erroneous information continues to be reported, especially since our operations are transparent and available for observation at any time.

Should anyone wish to visit the Miura facilities, we can make arrangements for a tour. In fact, Adam Barr is in Japan at the factory right now. He will be available to answer any questions.
Should anyone have questions about where they are forged, please feel free to contact Adam Barr, President of Miura Golf at abarr@miuragolf.com
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miuraforged
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:00 pm

Dear Sir,

While it is not mentioned on each individual product page that it is forged in Japan, please rest assured that all Miura irons and wedges are forged in the Miura factory in Himeji, Japan. We trust that you may have been mistaken. Thank you for allowing us to clarify this.

Miura Golf



eiji wrote:
I can't produce facts over the forum, but if the Miura Rep who step up to dispute my statement can, please do. I would like to see them as I am sure the rest of the peeps who are monitoring this thread would too. And I would stand to correct myself for the false statement i made.

In Miura's website, only the Baby Blades, Tournament Blades and PP9003 was mention as forged in japan.

http://miuragolf.com/passingpoint-PP9003.asp

none of the other clubs mention forged in Himeji or in Japan.


Last edited by miuraforged on Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:10 pm

I definitely fell in love with the miura story (samurai sword makers, Himeiji) which then led me to Laguna to try the clubs.

For me, being manufactured in Japan is integral to that marketing story. Also crucial is the spin that the Miura family still work in the factory on the clubs.

I would be very very very disappointed if I found out that Miura irons were manufactured in any other factory, even if it was an excellent factory in the US.

I would like to thank miuraforged for clarifying the issue.

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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:05 pm

since so many supporters for miura....

think i come out n support my tourstage.....

4-5 years ago, i was seriously looking for a "real" set of irons...

obviously, i tried many brands....

and i nail it down to tourstage....

the miuras n honmas.... no budget at that time

when i look for it 2nd hand, cant find them that easily.... even on the net

but i was fortunate to find my Z101 for US$399 at almost brand new cond...

the Z101 had gone through many battles with me, set many milestones with me.... as i write now, those memories are flooding back

my very 1st trophy......

my very 1st sub 80 round.....

my 1st champion trophy....

my one n only even par round....

its has given me so much.... the sentimental values cringes to me whenever i look at newer sets

but i never lose faith.....

hopefully, this sunday my Z101 will give me more pleasant memories....

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Joshua
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:10 pm

maybe the factory in thailand replicates miura iron heads?
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:19 pm

personally, i really dun care my Z101 are endo-forged in japan or thailand....

i lup them deep deep.....
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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:36 pm

Quote :
slinger wrote:
personally, i really dun care my Z101 are endo-forged in japan or thailand....

i lup them deep deep.....



mine was recommended by you.....luv them deep deep 2

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TLHENG
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:41 pm

I can't produce facts over the forum

Are you now saying that you actually have facts but cannot reveal over the forum?



In Miura's website, only the Baby Blades, Tournament Blades and PP9003 was mention as forged in japan.

What makes you comes to the conclusion that the rest of the models are forged in thailand and not china,india or even Taiwan?

The very fact that you specifically mentioned Thailand, shows that you must have proof of that or just hear-say from friend's friend during one of your coffee shop session.

Looks like the whole miura community is waiting for your clarification.

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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:52 am

"1. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser.

In Latin, maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

So, if I say, Nikons are made in Zimbabwe, I then cannot say, up to Nikon to prove me wrong. I must prove Nikons are made in Zimbabwe. Before Nikon lovers get all upset, I am speaking purely in the hypothetical of course."


Lee, i should point out that the above principle does not always apply (in England and Singapore, at least). So, in certain circumstances, the allegation need only be made and the burden shifts to the defendant. (don't mean to be argumentative, just bored waiting for frys.com to start Very Happy )

cheers!
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Shanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:12 am

slinger wrote:
since so many supporters for miura....

think i come out n support my tourstage.....

4-5 years ago, i was seriously looking for a "real" set of irons...

obviously, i tried many brands....

and i nail it down to tourstage....

the miuras n honmas.... no budget at that time

when i look for it 2nd hand, cant find them that easily.... even on the net

but i was fortunate to find my Z101 for US$399 at almost brand new cond...

the Z101 had gone through many battles with me, set many milestones with me.... as i write now, those memories are flooding back

my very 1st trophy......

my very 1st sub 80 round.....

my 1st champion trophy....

my one n only even par round....


its has given me so much.... the sentimental values cringes to me whenever i look at newer sets

but i never lose faith.....

hopefully, this sunday my Z101 will give me more pleasant memories....


And you told me you play to a hcp of around 10~12??
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:50 am

mox wrote:
"1. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser.

In Latin, maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

So, if I say, Nikons are made in Zimbabwe, I then cannot say, up to Nikon to prove me wrong. I must prove Nikons are made in Zimbabwe. Before Nikon lovers get all upset, I am speaking purely in the hypothetical of course."


Lee, i should point out that the above principle does not always apply (in England and Singapore, at least). So, in certain circumstances, the allegation need only be made and the burden shifts to the defendant. (don't mean to be argumentative, just bored waiting for frys.com to start Very Happy )

cheers!

Oh, that's interesting to know. Do you mean that in a legal sense? I've always thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty. Whether or not there is a case to answer needs to be established first. What legal principle is that? Would be cool to find out. Thanks.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:15 am

Lee36328 wrote:
mox wrote:
"1. The burden of proof always rests on the accuser.

In Latin, maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."

So, if I say, Nikons are made in Zimbabwe, I then cannot say, up to Nikon to prove me wrong. I must prove Nikons are made in Zimbabwe. Before Nikon lovers get all upset, I am speaking purely in the hypothetical of course."


Lee, i should point out that the above principle does not always apply (in England and Singapore, at least). So, in certain circumstances, the allegation need only be made and the burden shifts to the defendant. (don't mean to be argumentative, just bored waiting for frys.com to start Very Happy )

cheers!

Oh, that's interesting to know. Do you mean that in a legal sense? I've always thought the defendant was innocent until proven guilty. Whether or not there is a case to answer needs to be established first. What legal principle is that? Would be cool to find out. Thanks.

When I searched for "burden of proof on the defendant", this is what I found in wiki. [Square brackets inserted for context]

Wikipedia:

English defamation law

Burden of proof on the defendant

In most legal systems, the courts give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant. In criminal law, he or she is presumed innocent until the prosecution can prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; whereas in civil law, he or she is presumed innocent until the plaintiff can show liability on a balance of probabilities. However, the common law of libel reverses the traditional positions somewhat: a defamatory statement [Miura forging done in Thailand] is presumed to be false, unless the defendant [who stated the defamatory statement] can prove its truth. One could suggest that this amounts to a presumption of the innocence of the plaintiff in the face of an accusation levelled by the defendant. Furthermore, to collect compensatory damages, a public official or public figure must prove actual malice (knowing falsity or reckless disregard for the truth). A private individual [Miura] must only prove negligence (not exercising due care) [such as making an allegation without discerning the truth of the statement, and in this case, it has been admitted that proof could not be provided] to collect compensatory damages. In order to collect punitive damages, all individuals must prove actual malice. The definition of "public figure" has varied over the years.

More detailed information about liability in cyberspace.

http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/it&law/c10_main.htm

With the prevalence of forums, it presented a different context to libel and defamation. I have always wondered, can a forum be held legally accountable for the comments of its users and moderators?

A forum can use this defence.

""A person shall not be considered the author, editor or publisher of a statement if he is only involved …
(c)in … operating or providing any equipment, system or service by means of which the statement is retrieved, copied, distributed or made available in electronic form;…[or]
(e) as the operator of or provider of access to a communications system by means of which the statement is transmitted, or made available, by a person over whom he has no effective control." [parts omitted and emphasis added]"

However, when the statement is made by a moderator of the forum, it clearly renders argument (e) ineffective.

So, short answer, if the comment is made by a normal users, maybe, maybe not, but if the comment is made by a moderator, then certainly the forum can be held liable, if I understood the article correctly.
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:31 am

Hi all,

I wrote to Adam Barr, president of Miura Inc, last night. And I reproduce his answer below verbatim.

-----------------------------------------------
Dear Derek:

Congratulations on your 501s. We're glad you're part of the Miura family.

Every Miura forged club head -- every single one, including your 501s --is made in our forge and factory in Himeji, Japan, a little more than an hour northwest of Osaka. The name of the suburb the factory is in is Amaji. It's about a 20-minute train ride on the JR Bantan Line from Himeji Station. As a matter of fact, the train line runs right by the forge. The factory is a couple kilometers beyond the station.

To see what we do there, check out the video I will send you in the next e-mail.

Contact me any time with questions or comments. Thanks again for trusting your game to Miura.

Adam Barr
President
Miura Golf

-----------------------------------------

As far as I am concerned, the reply of the President of a registered company in writing specifically answering my question lays to rest the issue of location of manufacture.

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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:44 am

Thanks Derek...

now i sian liao....

nothing to argue anymore


by the way, my swing is conceptualize by me and me alone...all done in my little living room ...proud to say..." Made in SG "
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:47 am

You bought new irons to replace your 'most messed up' ones???
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PostSubject: Re: Miura forged vs endo forged   Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:06 am

i guess with all the clarification made by Miura, we are now very clear and aware that these clubs are made in Japan, only in Japan.

Maybe we can really arrange a trip there to visit their factory.....who wanna go, raise your hand please .....haha !!!
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