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 Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Recently Hybrid posted this article.

HyBriD wrote:
just wanna share this from what I read...
and let's hope we can discuss & share your opinion about TW's swing

...

And he had the best tempo.[/b]
Click here to view further more

And from the article, we get this definition of tempo.

"Here's a quick tutorial. John Novosel is the Kansas inventor who discovered that virtually all Tour-quality golfers—no matter how frantically or leisurely they swing—have the exact same tempo: a 3-to-1 elapsed-time ratio of backswing to forward swing, measured to impact."

So tempo is defined as the ratio of the elapsed-time of the backswing to forward swing measured to impact.

Lets take two swings which seem so different in terms of pace.

Slow and easy, the big easy Ernie Els, versus rapid-fire, shoot first ask question later, Rickie Fowler.

Would you say their tempos are the same, or that Rickie has a faster tempo?

Take a look at the video I put together to analyse the elapsed-time ratio of their backswing to forward swing - their tempo.

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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:08 pm

Not showing on my iphone, but can you count the frames with your video software?

18 frames back/6 frames to finish, 21/7, 24/8 all have same ratio.

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:29 pm

pushslice wrote:
Not showing on my iphone, but can you count the frames with your video software?

18 frames back/6 frames to finish, 21/7, 24/8 all have same ratio.


Too bad you can't see it on the iphone.

I synched up the video side by side so that the takeaways start at the same time, and adjusted the speed of one of the videos so that the downswing starts at the same time. And was amazed to see both the clubs reached impact simultaneously.

Hence, the ratio of elapsed time of backswing to forward swing up to impact are the same.

I'm guessing if I do the same for most of the other PGA Tour swings , I'll get the same result as well.
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dmateo
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:38 pm

lee,

can't see the video on ie and firefox ..hmm...
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ljlow
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:08 pm

LIKE!
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dmateo
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:04 pm

okay not sure what's wrong with the wind7 notebook, the desktop is ok.
ernie is one plane and ricky is a two plan swing ?
His downswing start by altering the swing plane to be a bit flatter then when he did his backswing.

Ernie on the other hand remain the same for both back swing and down swing.

Interesting.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:25 pm

Ok now I can see it.

Maybe Ernie is more towards 24 frames/8 frames while Ricky is closer to 21/7 or even 18/6. Hence Ricky's vid must be slowed down to synch up.

the boy's lag is awesome. Sergio like. Still like the big e more though.
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stickman
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:39 pm

so should the term "tempo" still be used if going by what was shown above???

...assuming that I got it correct to say that their tempo is the same, than what term to describe Ernie's slower swing to Rickie's faster swing???


Interested to know more here...

Cheers

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:54 pm

stickman wrote:
so should the term "tempo" still be used if going by what was shown above???

...assuming that I got it correct to say that their tempo is the same, than what term to describe Ernie's slower swing to Rickie's faster swing???


Interested to know more here...

Cheers


The closest term I can think of is elapsed time. Ernie's swing takes more elapsed time. Rickie takes less.

Defining tempo as a ratio of elapsed time of backswing to downswing makes it measurable, and therefore more useful than a subjective, unquantifiable term.

However, that says nothing about the clubhead speed of Ernie vis a vis Rickie. Clubhead speed is also measurable.

So, it is also incorrect to say Ernie's speed is slower. Similarly, also erroneous to conclude Ernie's tempo is slower, with this definition.

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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:05 pm

Let's not bastardise the word tempo. Tempo is a measure of pace, or beats per minute in music.

In the correct definition, Ernie has a slower tempo that Rickie.
The only similarity is the ratio of the upswing duration to downswing duration.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:29 pm

mizzy wrote:
Let's not bastardise the word tempo. Tempo is a measure of pace, or beats per minute in music.

In the correct definition, Ernie has a slower tempo that Rickie.
The only similarity is the ratio of the upswing duration to downswing duration.

In the musical sense, I agree.

That's why I struggled with the definition of tempo in golf, and searched high and low for a precise definition.

And found none, until this version I first saw in golf digest, quoting a researcher who studied the ratio of backswing to downswing, and used the word 'tempo' to describe the ratio.

In music, tempo as you said is a measure of beat per minute. It is measurable.

But there is not 'beat' in the swing, only one backswing and one downswing.

So, how do we measure 'beat' per minute in a swing?

We measure the ratio instead. It's unfortunate the word 'tempo' is used to describe it. But that's what the researcher has done, and is accepted in the golf media.
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:34 pm

the beat per minute in a swing is the time elapsed in the upswing and down swing.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:52 pm

mizzy wrote:
the beat per minute in a swing is the time elapsed in the upswing and down swing.

And the ratio of the elapsed time, unfortunately, is termed the 'tempo'.

The ratio is admittedly more useful than the absolute elapsed time.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:58 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
mizzy wrote:
the beat per minute in a swing is the time elapsed in the upswing and down swing.

And the ratio of the elapsed time, unfortunately, is termed the 'tempo'.

The ratio is admittedly more useful than the absolute elapsed time.

The elapsed time for Ernie to swing a PW compared to a driver, would obviously be different.

But the 'tempo' would be the same. That's no so surprising.

But Ernie and Rickie having the same 'tempo', as do many other golfers, was a revelation.
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PostSubject: Re: Rickie And Ernie's Tempo - same or different?   Today at 7:39 pm

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