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botak
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:32 pm

Perhaps SPGA should consider a combined tour with the Malaysia PGM? PGM has 16 events this year. Granted, the prize money would not be very attractive for Singaporean pros (given Msia's worthless Ringgit).
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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:48 pm

Well, in fact my statement include both your point of views. If someone with the "cloud' to head it, he will bring along with him the Trust, Recognition, relevance and prestige to the org. With that , opening the doors will be easier for initial contact.

Unfortunately, in this world .... "whose who" will play a big part in getting a sponsor for initial discussion.

Correct me, The President of spga need he be a PGA professional ? if not, what about an honorary President ?

"A Sponsor will enter into a relationship only if the Ambassador practice high standard of moral and integrity" and the financial aspect of the deal have to be a win win for both!
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:04 pm

Soccer is supposed to be the biggest sport here but S League games have difficulty of filling up stadiums. People won't come to golf course for 4-5 hours.

So tournament income will come from tv deals, not from tickets. As local sponsors, they want max coverage so that means channel 5, not starhub sports channel.

Will a local pro tournament make it to channel 5's Sunday morning/aftnoon coverage? Who watches tv on Sunday? So you need big names to draw fans to watch telly. Fans will draw advertisements. Ads opportunities draw sponsors. This is the corp sponsor route.

Alternatively, spga shud try to lobby spore tycoons to donate 6 millions for 12 tournaments to grow the game. The remisier king paid millions to buy f1 team. Riady family gave millions to smu and nus to have their name on the building. We read often in the news of charitable gifts by spore tycoons. As capt said, maybe spga just need somebody who can make the case to the billionaires.

E.g. Bakrie family in Indonesia was going to donate $10m to build training ground for Nat'l football team. He wanted the credit and powers inside local football assoc. bcoz local football is really big in the country, obviously for political reasons.





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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:34 pm

Just to make this point clear: why does spore need a philantropist from Japan (mr Handa) to sponsor a golf tournament here?

I dun think the country lacks very rich folks. Check out Forbes list.

mr GCT is an avid golfer rite? Mr Jayakumar is picking up the sport I heard. I'm sure they know folks who can help the sport.
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:04 am

pushslice wrote:
mr GCT is an avid golfer rite? Mr Jayakumar is picking up the sport I heard. I'm sure they know folks who can help the sport.

Sorry to say this... But they might be thinking how this would benefit them should they "open doors" to help the sport.
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skybobo
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:08 am

How will a local circuit promote the standards of golf in Singapore?
Will there be enuff pros to participate? Sure there will be.......but how is the standards like? 74, 75, 76....78, 79? These are the scores that I often see in local PGA events, our pros are struggling to even make par.

Can we blame them? Hardly cos almost 90% of them are teaching pros. They have to care for their bread and butter. And if they are into teaching, how to have time to train?

If I'm a sponsor, its really heartbreaking to see a tournament full of such scores.

Sorry if I offended anyone. It is not meant to be.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:18 am

skybobo wrote:
How will a local circuit promote the standards of golf in Singapore?
Will there be enuff pros to participate? Sure there will be.......but how is the standards like? 74, 75, 76....78, 79? These are the scores that I often see in local PGA events, our pros are struggling to even make par.

Can we blame them? Hardly cos almost 90% of them are teaching pros. They have to care for their bread and butter. And if they are into teaching, how to have time to train?

If I'm a sponsor, its really heartbreaking to see a tournament full of such scores.

Sorry if I offended anyone. It is not meant to be.

Hey Markie, no offence taken, you are correct, and this is my whole point, we have no where to play, to raise our standards we need compititon.

When we do play though, it is under tournament conditons, so some of those scores are quite good for Teachers.... Very Happy

@and68low. Yes mate, I hear you loud and clear, I do not know the consitution, it is available on the website, but with the ego's and to be honest in fighting, I cannot see that happening soon.

I dont know the answear either scratch

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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:26 am

Hi SH, here my 2cents based on my present understanding and thoughts of the golfing landscape:

1. Instead of focusing on a pro tour be it at country level or watever, I think the focus should be on the amateur level first ..this is so that we can have a good pool of golfers and then depending on the quality, the pro tour will automatically comes along..at least the thoughts and plans

2. To enable #1, there is a need to have a good transparent HCP system. Currently, maintenance of HCP which require very minimal scorecard submission is to me...a joke

3. Mite be a wishful thinking but it will really help if the private courses allocated x number of flts for public.....how that can be done is a challenge I know but ...this will give visibility and experience to more

4. I think the golf clubs should have an affliation program to potential youngsters ....say someone in a primary school is pretty good but not enough moolah to buy club membership, it will be good if there is an 'adoption' program.

5. Agree with all the comments in earlier threads.
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and68low
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:50 am

Duval Bro.. let me try to expand on your points..

Firstly, the amateur level have been taken care by SGA.....and they have a good pool of young talent at the moment to succeed to the next level. Saying that, what when wrong after leave me wonder again !

The SPGA have their own well crafted objectives/agendas, and I personally feels SPGA need not be involve with the grooming of amateur. Though out of curtesy they do invite top amateur to participate in their event. Political/PR moves ?

Unfortunately the standards to qualify to be a PRO in Singapore is way below standard. Just imagine, all u need is for any amateur to play a couple of rounds of total 160s and entry fees of few hundred dollars qualifies you to be a B pro ! Amazing ! seem to me they want Quantity against Quality. Where is the days of apprenticeship! Just look at the web site of SPGA, the numbers of amateur taking the PRO test ... they have candidates who score to 100s in a round and the rest averaging 80s !

Its so Damming... we do have really few good Pros but with the current mindset of SPGA its going to the Dogs ..... unless unless .

Mind you, the Institution is not at fault but the ppl running it is !

Probably after posting what I said my car gonna be well Re design ... ha ha ha... but who cares !

Oh... being good in golf and no moolah .... sucks, but not an excuse ! if the golfer have the Will he or she can make it happen ... Question is .... enough passion for it ???





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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:17 pm

Sorry guys been offline,

To Duval, Captain is right mate, the amateur golfers already have everything done for them. They are in fact now practicing at laguna, it is when they make the step from amateur to Pro that it hits the wall..

And it is quite simply there are not enough events to play in... the average person sees a Pro event and says, "well why did you not play there"? it is not that simple, there are q schools, ranking lists monday qualifiers. There are more golfers than events.

Which brings me back to where I started...

The other point brought up though I disagree with 100%....

"Unfortunately the standards to qualify to be a PRO in Singapore is way below standard. Just imagine, all u need is for any amateur to play a couple of rounds of total 160s and entry fees of few hundred dollars qualifies you to be a B pro ! Amazing ! seem to me they want Quantity against Quality. Where is the days of apprenticeship! Just look at the web site of SPGA, the numbers of amateur taking the PRO test ... they have candidates who score to 100s in a round and the rest averaging 80s !

And let me state that I am not speaking on behalf of any organisation, association or anyting, I am mearly trying to get an idea off the ground.

Firstly relating to the above statement, yes there are many taking the test, but very few pass, very few.

Overseas also, anyone can apply for a traineeship, you go through interview process. You must be a good player, but you have time to prepare for good scoring.

It is very difficult if you are told to shoot 80 2 days in a row, your livelyhood depends on it... in tournament conditions.. very difficult.

However, if that person does, he gets an apprentice card, means he can teach and try and improve his game so he can pass the A Pro PAT.

Now, even overseas when you are doing a 3 year traineeship, you do not have to shoot 4 over before you can start, you have 3 years to get your scores to that level.

Plus you have WEEKLY Pro events to play in so you get better at scoring... and if you achive the PAT score during the tournament you pass.

So the scoring side of the above statement I do not agree with, people can always get better by playing, but I do agree that there should be some sort of "how to teach" training, along with other subjects a golf pro should know.

But it is a lot better than some of the other coaches around that take your hard earned money, their PAT is 86 off the white tees.... Very Happy

I agree with Captain that there are issues there... but he has been in the industry a long time, the CEO/ Corporate sponsors that I am seeking information from, do not know or care about the politics so long as they get their ROI.

Tim Finshim is hated by majority of players, but he gets results... Beer

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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:33 pm

That's why coach, in a seeding stage like local pro scene: the usual Corporate sponsors won't come. The philanthropist/visionary/billionaire who-care-less-about-roi option is more likely IMO.

But if LCB wins some big tourneys, he could draw some sponsors Very Happy Even KJ has his own invitational.

Anyways, how do hkpga and malaysian PGA fund their tournament?
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 10:03 pm

Hi Fellas

As an aspiring playing professional, it's definitely a worry that we do not have enough professional events on our tour. I've played in all 5 SPGA events that has to offer this year and that's nowhere close to the number of events we need. Sponsorship is definitely hard to come by considering the financial climate of today and the reluctance of any Establishment/company/individual to sponsor a professional event due to the lack of interest to. Unfortunately the mentality and culture here is as such, what can I get out of sponsoring an event? Why should I? What mileage do I get? However instead of trying to do something about it, so many of us are guilty of playing the game of excuses, blaming the lack of tournaments on the money minded corporate world, stingy individuals and the poor economic climate. As with myself I know that there's no point looking for sponsors when the results don't show. It's a real world and we need results to back ourselves.

I feel that we as a PGA need to step up our game, get our act together so we can hopefully attract sponsors for our tour and I can say we are on the right track. Though I'm not on the board, I do know that the SPGA are taking steps in the right direction as:
1. The PGA are in the process of establishing a structured teaching manual for it's members
2. The PGA are trying the best to promote themselves as a PGA by getting the backing of Singapore Sports Council.

However I'm in no position to comment on the "B" pro status or other federations as I do not wish to make controversial remarks with regards to another person's occupation. I do however wish that there would be only one recognized body that a professional can be a member of and that this body have stringent and adequate playing and teaching standards that a member has to meet. I'm not going to deny that the traineeship program is the way to go but it will take more than a generation for that to be implemented here.

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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:33 am

Khorkar wrote:
SH,

I think the blunt facts is just that as a whole, SG dont have the needed passion and love for sports enough to pour $$$ and time in it. In the end, it all about the selfless interest to grow talents and opportunities for kids. May be the answer that you are looking for is a stronger and selfless SPGA that want to do more for this country other than just playing golf or business as usual.

Its not that SG arent capable, may be they havent thought about future...and what they can do it. Instead, we are sitting idle pondering we can do for ourselves now.

Apologies if i offended anyone, it wasnt intended too...

I think this gentleman has made a fine point. Singaporeans do not have a sporting culture. Take Australia, for example. Their population is small, less than Malaysia even. Their sporting accomplishments are incredible for their population size, however.

Australians encourage their kids to play sports and professional sportsmen are held in relatively high regard. The notable thing is that while there are bodies like the Australian Institute of Sport, the community provides its own sports incubation through the different community leagues. People can find teams that cater to their desired level of play and constantly hone their skills.

In terms of golf, the system in Singapore does not support the cultivation of young talent. While in other countries, municipal courses allow and encourage their teaching pros to teach kids pro bono, Singapore clubs even want to limit the usage of the courses for their teaching pros.
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:11 am

shorthitter wrote:
Thanks guys, some good comments, I still think the population/size of Singapore is not a good argument.

Northern Ireland is not much bigger than Singapore, with a population of about 1.8 million, and they have 3 Major Champs in the last year or so.

Also, India about a Billion people, How many of them have heard of golf? lets say 3 million max, how many of them have heard of Hero Honda, probaly a Billion...

So this sponsor is still pumping $$$$$$$$ into the game, for what? The whole Country knows his product.

Do you not think a Company would get a better ROI from sponsoring a Pro event that gets 4 days of Media coverage, plus they still get a game with the staff and clients, than a half day event at a golf course that may get a quarter page in a magzine somewhere?




I can understand your reluctance to accept the demographic reasonings given i.e. the given population size (market size, to use the correct term). Your comparison with Ireland seems valid, but we are talking about golfers, not general population. Ireland has a lot more golfing populations vs Singapore. Likewise, India or China has much more golfers, even though only s tiny % of them play golf, than Singapore, even though half of Singporeans may play golf (which you know I am exaggeratting). The often heard of marketing story is even if only 1% of Chinese wear rolex, there will be 13m Rolex customers, vs even if everyone in Singapore wears a Rolex.

Hongkong is unique because HK is seen as leading market to the mainland China, so there are less HK golfers, but marketeers are taregtting the larger golfing population base in China, esp Southern China.

I used to handle US$13m of Asia/Pac marketing budget with a big American MNC, and I spent zero $ in Singapore (where I had my Asia HQ), but shot 3 TV commercials for China, and 1 for India, when neither of those countries had given us any sales. But the campaign was so effective that China sales shot past Singapore within just one year and went on to become more than 10 times the size of Singapore sales after a few years. That's how we use marketing money, to realise huge potentials in ROI.

To spend that kind of money, as in sponsoring golf events, requires strategic arguments/presentations for top managements approval. We can get shot down within seconds by our bosses and peers simply mentioning sponsorship of a local golf event in a tiny market like Singapore, unless we can convince them that the event is broadcast globally and reach global or at least regional target customers. So I'd rather sponsor Singapore Open sanctioned by PGA/EPGA, than to sponsor local evenst that are not broadcast to bigger consumer base with higher exposure rates.















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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:35 am

An article in Today written by an assistant professor in a local university.

Extract: If Singapore's policies are based on pragmatism and inclusiveness, golfing should not be considered a practical activity here. Golfers should go to neighbouring countries for their sport.

http://www.todayonline.com/Voices/EDC111025-0000167/Golf-courses,-not-history,-should-make-way


Golf courses, not history, should make way
by Liew Kai Khiun

The Land Transport Authority's plan to open a major road through Bukit Brown Cemetery, which is of eco-heritage value, has raised debates between conservationists and developmentalists.

One sees the more intangible but longer term cultivation of a collective sense of identity and belonging; the other, the short-term but lucrative demands for growth and prosperity, particularly for this land near expensive residences along Bukit Timah Road.

As the population expands, the contestations for land use will become more pressing, and this debate is crucial in determining the liveability of Singapore for future generations.

While I am heartened by the Government's commitment to "a city within a garden", I am unsure how this can be realised in practice. The approach to Bukit Brown Cemetery seems instead to be turning the country into gardens within the city.

Perhaps, we need a radical rethink of land use in light of the current limitations, and I suggest that Singapore does away completely with golf courses.

According to the Urban Redevelopment Authority, 22 golf courses and three temporary golf sites occupied 88 per cent of the 1,600 hectares of land used for sports and recreation in 2000, or 2.2 per cent of total land area.

To underline the exclusive nature of golfing here, the premium Singapore Island Country Club has four 18-hole courses, a nine-hole course and two driving ranges that stretch from Adam Road to the boundaries of Peirce Reservoir.

All these facilities and land, enjoyed by about 18,000 members.

Although golf courses are located in constrained areas near water catchment zones, military training grounds or flight paths, not only do they occupy huge tracts of land, they are economically unproductive, socially exclusive and environmentally damaging.

If Singapore's policies are based on pragmatism and inclusiveness, golfing should not be considered a practical activity here. Golfers should go to neighbouring countries for their sport.

Given the increasing congestion in public parks like MacRitchie Reservoir and East Coast Park, it is unacceptable that a privileged few have exclusive access to large plots of land in a tiny country with a burgeoning population.

In 1991, plans to convert parts of Peirce Reservoir into an 18-hole golf course were shelved after the Nature Society convinced the authorities of the rich wildlife in the vicinity.

This scenic area has remained a public space and diverse natural habitat that all can enjoy. On similar grounds, if there must be redevelopment in the Lornie Road area, one of SICC's golf courses, rather than the cemetery, should make way.

The recent parliamentary debates put greater priority on cultivating Singapore's soul and on developing a more active citizenry interacting with a more open Government in an inclusive society, as the Prime Minister spelt out when he assumed premiership in 2004.

Singaporeans should ask themselves to choose between saving an exclusive golf course or a culturally, ecologically and historically rich site like Bukit Brown Cemetery, if they are keen on nurturing this Singapore Soul. This is not a difficult choice, even for the wealthy, if we are thinking of wealth and happiness for all Singaporeans for generations.
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:05 am

If there's no competition here, can spore pros find it elsewhere? I know its tough for older guys with families but the new generation can do this. The fact that they play serious golf since childhood suggests their families are doing OK and dun need financial support.

I remember interviews with Mike Weir, Stuart Appleby. Mike Weir and not so fondly remembered having to drag his own bag in Jkt's traffic to get to the course. Stuart mentioned about risking it all and competed at the nationwide tour as a young guy with only his luggage and golf bag. He was a farmer's boy.

are there legal barriers for a spore pros to compete in or join e.g. the australian pga ? Cyp Pga was telling me about how good the competition among trainees in Australia.
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:37 am

SPGA must push themselves to another level of recognition...... they need to have more drives and a gutsy vision, without it, which big corp. will help you out. Example, the likes of SBF (singapore bowling Federation) they made the changed with a New Head (Jessie Phua)... a lady too ! Now they are flooded with corp. wanting to be their partners. Always look at the fundamentals and the root of the problem.

Golfing around with your own kind not going to do much good, they need to be inclusive in the local circuit to bring up the standards and recognition... but the funds have to be there !

I was told the side bets within the players are more lucrative than the prize money offered !
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:08 pm

Money Medal!
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:43 pm

So in short, a passionate rich bugger who would pump in moolah without thinking so much of a loss for his 'investment' and then a passionate sweet talking bugger who can convince the aforementioned rich bugger to pump in the $$$.

Problem solved?
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:55 pm

just a simple question.....why must Singapore have a pro circuit for golf?

what is it that we are trying to achieve?
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:06 pm

Let me share two things ....

In our country, there are two kind of Golf Pro's....A Teaching Pro and a Touring Pro.

One, I think Singaporean Touring Pro's , Like Quincy Quek etc. can join the Asean Golf Tour or

They can also join our Philippine Golf Tour . There are already Americans & Europeans Golf Pro's who have been joining our PGT.

2ndly, what Singapore needs is a company who will sponsor your local Pro's...
The sponsors will take care of the plane fare, entry fee and pocket money
But in return, I am not sure but they get 60 or 70% of the earnings.

Way back in the 50s, 60s and 70s, it was Philip Morris who was sponsoring the tournament
and during those hey days, Philippine Golf was 2nd in Asia in terms of skills and World class competence in Asia.

but when the government banned The cigarette companies from sponsoring sports events.
The local Golf Pro circuit became "null"
That is why Thailand, South Korea and Malaysia have overtook our Local Golfers.

Se Ri Pak, Vijay Singh, KJ Choi came to our country and were trained by our Philippine Golf Pros during their Amateur days except for VJ Singh. VJ Singh came to our country and trained when he was banned by Asian Golf Tour.

Some of our Golf Pros went to Japan and competed there like Minoza.

Nowadays it's ICTSI who is sponsoring and acting as "Godfather" to our Philippine Golfers.

Singapore should have a company who will focus as Sponsors to your Golf Pros
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:01 am

this is from Lake Malaren Shanghai Masters where Mcilroy is in leading position. (AP/Yahoo news)

Quote

.....Li is one of nine Chinese players vying for a chunk of the $5 million purse funded by tournament owners, property tycoon Shi Jian and his 28-year-old son and partner Janson.

Other big name players enticed by hefty appearance fees and the attractive last place $25,000 loser's cheque include major champions such as Charl Schwartzel, Bradley Keegan plus Colin Mongtomerie.

Unquote

Dont you just love tycoons? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:22 am

So, why it the Asian Tour chief unhappy with the Shanghai tournament?

Excerpt below.

Arguably the biggest golf event of the week is the Shanghai Masters. Put on by International Management Group, it is a 30-man event featuring 14 of the world’s top-50 players in a field competing for a $2 million first place prize. It’s not sanctioned by any tour and offers no world ranking points, but it does offer a lot of cash and will generate a lot of attention in one of China’s biggest cities.

Asian Tour chief Kyi Hla Han cautioned on Tuesday, however, that he feels such events – as well as the seven-day, seven-city Shui On Land China Golf Challenge - are detrimental to the development of golf in the country.

“Players need a structured organisation that looks after their best interests. I just don’t think exhibition tournaments like the Lake Malaren [Shanghai Masters] event helps the players develop,” said Han, according to AFP.

Han questioned the wisdom of the China Golf Association in backing the event with IMG.

“I hope China realises events like this won’t help its young players. I have to question the development of Chinese players because over the last three years, there hasn’t been any breaking through to play on the world stage,” he said. “These exhibition events are just short term situations making the rich players richer, and they are all non-Asian players. In a way these tournaments are vanity projects by the organizers and sponsors.”

http://progolftalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/25/asian-tour-chief-unhappy-with-impact-of-vanity-tournaments-in-china/

========================

But he warned that the Official World Golf Ranking committee, of which he is a member, could protest if such tournaments continue unsanctioned.

"The Asia Tour is part of the International Federation of PGA Tours and we all would like to see these events become sanctioned by the tours under a proper structure in the future," he said.

"If it does become a bigger issue and there are more of these events, then the Asian Tour and the International Federation of PGA Tours, will act upon it.

"But right now we have to adopt a wait and see approach, he added."

========================

Really?

Bringing players like Rory, Westwood, and in the past, Tiger and Phil to the world's largest potential market, generating a high level of public and media interest, is actually bad for the development of golf in the country?

So, is development of the sport the issue here? Or is it good old interest-driven political agenda?

I wonder how the general public would view how the sport is governed when they read news articles and statements from the officials like these.

In comparison, the sanctioned CIMB Malaysia event which is being held at the same time contains a much less compelling field, compared to last year and compared to Shanghai. I can hardly drag my lazy butt to go watch it this year. That's me. Imagine the less fanatical golfing public.
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:00 am

On SPGA, can I just point out that if I were a potential sponsor and I just took a brief walk-thru of SPGA's website, it would not inspire much confidence. Numerous grammatical and spelling errors ....

To me at least, it doesn't reflect very well on the professionalism of the people behind the SPGA, which is unfortunate, because those people may well be very professional, capable and committed individuals.

Maybe the website isn't a priority, but just my 2 cents...
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PostSubject: Re: Wondering...   Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:30 am

All good points, thanks Freedrop, that is good info..

Now to find a Tycoon....... Very Happy
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