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golfernatic
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:39 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
That's amateurs giving unsolicited advice.

How about paid professionals teaching wrong 'knowledge'?

I was at a hitting bay and there was this confident, loud expat coach from a local golf school coaching some young students, so I couldn't help overhearing every thing he said.

And he was teaching them, "The swing path determines where your ball goes initially, and the club face determines where the ball curves at the end."

I thought to myself, "Uh oh, old ball flight laws."

He had them hit shots one by one and call out where the path was pointing and where the club face was pointing based on the shape of the shots. The aim was so that they can diagnose and fix their swing in the middle of the round based on the shape of the shot. Unfortunately, using wrong laws meant the diagnosis was doomed from the start. I cringed slightly.

Then, the straw that broke the camel's back, he proudly informed his students, "That's called the ball flight laws."

I silently picked up my jaw from the ground.

I am sure he meant well, to the extent of his knowledge. But he should update his knowledge. Jorgensen published his book in 1994. 17 years on, by now, all coaches should know about the 'new' ball flight laws.

The parents who sent their kids to him, I'm sure, are paying a premium for a foreign coach. They deserve correct teachings at least.

Do we have to pay a premium for foreign coach? I suppose that is why Singapore is such a haven for them.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:51 pm

golfernatic wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
That's amateurs giving unsolicited advice.

How about paid professionals teaching wrong 'knowledge'?

I was at a hitting bay and there was this confident, loud expat coach from a local golf school coaching some young students, so I couldn't help overhearing every thing he said.

And he was teaching them, "The swing path determines where your ball goes initially, and the club face determines where the ball curves at the end."

I thought to myself, "Uh oh, old ball flight laws."

He had them hit shots one by one and call out where the path was pointing and where the club face was pointing based on the shape of the shots. The aim was so that they can diagnose and fix their swing in the middle of the round based on the shape of the shot. Unfortunately, using wrong laws meant the diagnosis was doomed from the start. I cringed slightly.

Then, the straw that broke the camel's back, he proudly informed his students, "That's called the ball flight laws."

I silently picked up my jaw from the ground.

I am sure he meant well, to the extent of his knowledge. But he should update his knowledge. Jorgensen published his book in 1994. 17 years on, by now, all coaches should know about the 'new' ball flight laws.

The parents who sent their kids to him, I'm sure, are paying a premium for a foreign coach. They deserve correct teachings at least.

Do we have to pay a premium for foreign coach? I suppose that is why Singapore is such a haven for them.

Cost factors are different, so it will affect the price directly or indirectly. Sometimes the quality is commensurate with the higher cost, sometimes not.
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mengteck71
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:23 pm

cost should not be a factor. more importantly is do u find the money spent worth it?
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lennard.low
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:26 pm

Kengnam wrote:
Depend on what kind of golfer we met.For me,I'm lucky to meet a golfer who had golfing for twenty over years.I still remember eight mth ago at bishan range,I hitting at the mat and not those balls like a joker and I think of giving up.A uncle at next bay come to me and gave me some tips and on that day we become frd.Eight mth later i got my best score 97 with this uncle and his frds and on sport he gave me some course management at Batam Palm Spring. for a beginner like me is not how talent i'm,is the person who teach.This uncle who went to states learning golf from pro when he was young and i still learning for him now.Thank to Edward.

Wow...sounds like a GREAT guy. Glad there are people like them still around
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:09 pm

as long as ppl are enjoying their game..... without the loudmouth, the newbies probably would have never been persuaded to even start playing golf...the guys is probably trying to introduce golf to them by telling them he will teach them to hit......most potential new players did not pick up golf because of cos (until they get hooked) who wants to spend $1k on lesson then find out they dont like the game...at the end its always a 'lousy' player that get them in and 'teach' them to play for free.

good players are too busy playing golf to do such things...
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Tituman
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:20 pm

blee2007 wrote:
Technospaz wrote:
The only thing I tell my flightmates these days are:

1. Calm down. Don't get mad cause you'll lose focus.
2. Please remind me of rule #1.

I only tell somebody to take deep breaths and open his legs wide..... Very Happy

Then shout pushhhh.....????? lol!
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joshyo
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:48 pm

Tronos, i have to disagree with ur last point that only the bad players have time to the newbies.

Personally When i first started out with golf it was a friend of mine who got me hooked on the way his ball would rocket out of the bay and steadily climb to a peak height before dropping off at x distance (depending on club of course) then it was about the short game play with wedges and so on. Everyshot would be perfectly executed with ease. From then on it has been about catching up to him in terms of distance and consistency.

A lousy player who cannot even hit his own balls will never be able to inspire another to pick up the game.
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scotty
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:19 am

I must really say this topic is very real!

Always be --humble-- even when one attained greatness in any skill.
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kevlee69
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:46 am

You are absolutely right. I play with a group of single handicap friends (they are single hcp, not me)
regularly and they are humble and friendly. And they subscribe to the adage
of giving advice only when sought. I learn alot about golf and etiquette from them. This is very important and is a form of etiquette cos there is no way you can correct anyone's swing while on the course. Golf mirrors real life and most of the time, empty vessels make the most noise. My aim in starting this post is to share with some of those here who might be new to golf- learn from a pro and not from any Tom, dick and Harry. Your friend might be a good golfer but not a good teacher. Golf is hard enough, don't learn the wrong things from the start and make life harder for yourself. Cheers !




scotty wrote:
I must really say this topic is very real!

Always be --humble-- even when one attained greatness in any skill.
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blee67
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:33 am

Tituman wrote:
blee2007 wrote:
Technospaz wrote:
The only thing I tell my flightmates these days are:

1. Calm down. Don't get mad cause you'll lose focus.
2. Please remind me of rule #1.

I only tell somebody to take deep breaths and open his legs wide..... Very Happy

Then shout pushhhh.....????? lol!

White Flag ROFL
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golfjoy
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:35 am

Kengnam wrote:
Depend on what kind of golfer we met.For me,I'm lucky to meet a golfer who had golfing for twenty over years.I still remember eight mth ago at bishan range,I hitting at the mat and not those balls like a joker and I think of giving up.A uncle at next bay come to me and gave me some tips and on that day we become frd.Eight mth later i got my best score 97 with this uncle and his frds and on sport he gave me some course management at Batam Palm Spring. for a beginner like me is not how talent i'm,is the person who teach.This uncle who went to states learning golf from pro when he was young and i still learning for him now.Thank to Edward.

Why is it that I never had any uncle come give me a tip or 2? Suspect




Come to think of it .... maybe I am beyond hope Crying or Very sad
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Bangla123
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:27 pm

Is this thread supposed to be a subtle jibe at the starry starry night organized by golf republic... Not nice.. Twisted Evil
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golfernatic
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:03 pm

As long as advice I get comes from a qualified coach, I will accept. That is how I go about it. And truly cost is not my main consideration.
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:21 pm

its not that good players dont teach..but they are already busy actually playing golf They will teach usually their close friend only....not likely to arrange a regular 'training' session with 5-6 work mates. A new or 'lousy' player will often go to the range, maybe a few times a week so most likely to invite ppl along.
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dmateo
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:47 pm

I'm not sure what is the definition of a good player ? what separate them from good and not so good player, is it handicap or playing years or they need to be pro.

One might see someone with nice swing etc, and conclude he is a good player. but the guy himself might think he is still far from it. So it's all very relative.

Also good player does not necessarily means good teacher and good teacher does not necessarily means good player either. Do you think Sean Folley can beat Tiger on a 18 roundabout ?
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:08 pm

dmateo wrote:

Also good player does not necessarily means good teacher and good teacher does not necessarily means good player either. Do you think Sean Folley can beat Tiger on a 18 roundabout ?

Excellent point.

None of Tiger's coach could ever beat him, not Sean, Haney nor Butch. That does not mean he could not/did not learn from them.

On the flip side, I often wonder what sort of coach Tiger would make...
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zixter
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:09 pm

Experienced this once. Long story short, a man in his 40s in front of my bay keep hitting slices but still gave the people around him an accomplished and feel good look. When i was setting up half way he asked "want to learn driver from me?". I said "no, i am good thanks". He gave a pissed off look and replied "EHHHHHHHH RELAX LAAAAA" ...

what's his probrem man...
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TDO
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:16 pm

I once had this rare opportunity to play a round with our local pro Chen Ren Jiat, unwittingly. He joined our flight with his young daughter as we are only 2 balls. He is humble and did not tell me who he was until he passed a name card to me. He is also the Honoury Treasurer for SGA. No tips were given during our game (not that I am expecting one for free anyway) as he is concentrating on teaching his lovely little girl. He did asked me to approach him though if I should need any correction on my swing. Smile
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benhogan
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:21 pm

If one insists in 'imparting tips', do it without disturbing others.many of these clowns are oblivious and it's really a pain to overhear the nonsense.but pretty entertaining to watch during my breaks.just saw another one this afternoon,3rd level, Marina.I have mellowed, I just smiled.
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uncleP
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:21 pm

Dear fellow GR, the old saying, blind leads the blind, if his song not sweet to you, dont listen. There are cheapo wo would like cheap trill.
Some old dogs never will learn new tricks, and if you are good, then why not give your 2 cents worth of coaching. Maybe he think he is giving community work?
Just like a not rich person, we can do our share of donation.
DO WE HAVE TO WAIT TO BE A BILLION AIR TO QUALIFY FOR DONATION.
Leave that person alone.
UNLESS he start giving you ... yes I MEAN YOU... advise or try to teach YOU.
politely tell him, thank you, and ignore him.
why so pissed?
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kevlee69
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:55 pm

Definitely not my intention. Cheers.





quote="Bangla123"]Is this thread supposed to be a subtle jibe at the starry starry night organized by golf republic... Not nice.. Twisted Evil [/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:05 am

Lee36328 wrote:
That's amateurs giving unsolicited advice.

How about paid professionals teaching wrong 'knowledge'?

I was at a hitting bay and there was this confident, loud expat coach from a local golf school coaching some young students, so I couldn't help overhearing every thing he said.

And he was teaching them, "The swing path determines where your ball goes initially, and the club face determines where the ball curves at the end."

I thought to myself, "Uh oh, old ball flight laws."

He had them hit shots one by one and call out where the path was pointing and where the club face was pointing based on the shape of the shots. The aim was so that they can diagnose and fix their swing in the middle of the round based on the shape of the shot. Unfortunately, using wrong laws meant the diagnosis was doomed from the start. I cringed slightly.

Then, the straw that broke the camel's back, he proudly informed his students, "That's called the ball flight laws."

I silently picked up my jaw from the ground.

I am sure he meant well, to the extent of his knowledge. But he should update his knowledge. Jorgensen published his book in 1994. 17 years on, by now, all coaches should know about the 'new' ball flight laws.

The parents who sent their kids to him, I'm sure, are paying a premium for a foreign coach. They deserve correct teachings at least.

Hi, Lee. Care to share what is the new ball flight law? I am still in the old theory

From what I know, on top what the coach says, swing speed is the thirdvfactor. For slow SS, like putting, chipping club face is more dominant in initial ball direction. As SS is higher like mid or long irons swing path dtermines ball initial flight.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:22 am

sandkie wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
That's amateurs giving unsolicited advice.

How about paid professionals teaching wrong 'knowledge'?

I was at a hitting bay and there was this confident, loud expat coach from a local golf school coaching some young students, so I couldn't help overhearing every thing he said.

And he was teaching them, "The swing path determines where your ball goes initially, and the club face determines where the ball curves at the end."

I thought to myself, "Uh oh, old ball flight laws."

He had them hit shots one by one and call out where the path was pointing and where the club face was pointing based on the shape of the shots. The aim was so that they can diagnose and fix their swing in the middle of the round based on the shape of the shot. Unfortunately, using wrong laws meant the diagnosis was doomed from the start. I cringed slightly.

Then, the straw that broke the camel's back, he proudly informed his students, "That's called the ball flight laws."

I silently picked up my jaw from the ground.

I am sure he meant well, to the extent of his knowledge. But he should update his knowledge. Jorgensen published his book in 1994. 17 years on, by now, all coaches should know about the 'new' ball flight laws.

The parents who sent their kids to him, I'm sure, are paying a premium for a foreign coach. They deserve correct teachings at least.

Hi, Lee. Care to share what is the new ball flight law? I am still in the old theory

From what I know, on top what the coach says, swing speed is the thirdvfactor. For slow SS, like putting, chipping club face is more dominant in initial ball direction. As SS is higher like mid or long irons swing path dtermines ball initial flight.

To the readers of this thread, apologies in advance, answering Sadkie's question will take it OT, so I'll try to be as brief as I can. And with a deep subject like ball flight, keeping it brief is harder than it sounds.

Sandkie,

Cut to the chase, swing speed is not a factor. Old ball flight laws have been proven wrong a long time ago.

The man to give credit to is Theodore P Jorgensen. He defined something called a D plane which explains why a golf ball behaves the way it does in flight. It is the first time anyone has ever done so correctly.

His theory was later verified by Trackman using phased array Doppler radar technology.

Google "D Plane" and we find the following excerpts.

"For many years, the PGA of America has taught its apprentices the ball flight as described by Gary Wiren in the PGA Teaching Manual. "

"For years, the US PGA’s “Ball Flight Laws” state that the ball will start in the direction of the club path and curve if the club face is pointed in a different direction than the club path."

"Sadly this information has been incorrect and may have contributed to some less than successful diagnosis and instruction. That’s not to say that there wasn’t some very good golf being played. It’s just that what they thought they were doing isn’t actually what they were doing and the ones that actually did as instructed had miserable results."

"Simply put, the D Plane shows that the ball actually starts just about where the face is pointed(approx 85% of it’s direction) and curves if the path is in a different direction than the face. The only assumption made here is solid contact. If the ball is hit off the sweetspot, the club will turn before the ball separates from the face and gear effect will affect the spin axis of the ball."

A few years back, as the knowledge trickled down to public awareness, when the serious enthusiasts (golfwrx is one example) realized the implication of this, there was a big hoo-ha about old ball flight laws and new ball flight laws. Some of them could not believe they have been taught the wrong thing for years. Some of them finally understood how to hit a fade and a draw correctly. Then they took delight in pointing out whenever mainstream publication (Golf Channel, Golf Digest), top name instructors (Leadbetter, etc), top player personalities (Nick Faldo) talked in terms of old ball flight laws, esp when talking about how to hit a fade or a draw.

(Yes, all of them used to get it wrong (and to this day, some still do). They could hit a fade or draw, because subconsciously they compensated. So, what they thought they were doing and what they actually did were completely different. No problem as long as they were getting results. But serious problem when they try to teach it.)

The 85% mentioned above is a rule of thumb. The percentage of influence the club face has on the iniitial direction of the ball changes according to loft. Club head speed does not affect it. So, the old ball flight laws as taught by the PGA manual was simply wrong, and there's no recovery from it regardless of speed.

For higher loft, the influence of the club face reduces, and the influence of the club path increases. For lower loft, the influence of the club face increases, and the influence of the club path decreases.

A putter has almost no loft. So the club face determines the initial ball direction almost 100%. Next up is the driver. And so on, until the lob wedge, in descending order of the influence of club face vs club path. That's why, if you notice, open up a lob wedge, and the ball goes right, but not by much as compared with, say, a 9 iron.

If one follows the 'old' PGA-taught ball flight laws, when you try to hit a draw, you will get a hook, and when you try to hit a fade, you will get a slice. To correct it, if we follow this rule, it will hook or slice even more. Imagine how confused a beginner would be. If we employ the D Plane, we can learn to draw or fade easily and effectively. Just a matter of set up angles.

Fascinating subject, merely brushed the surface lightly, but to avoid going OT any deeper, I will stop here.

Peace.
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alvin7379
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:55 am

Good information... But the question is... Understanding the concept and execution are 2 very different things...

Perhaps too many concepts might confuse one further? I believe in focusing more on the execution and make reasonable tweaks to make it more effective. Because every golfer have their swing limitations/ body limitations... Swing olready difficult and we throw in tons of new/ old flight laws... How to ever play and enjoy good golf?

scratch

Effective golf instead of perfect golf... Thats where a good coach differs from 'text book' coaches... My 2c...
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:50 pm

Actually, such range coaches teaches u to tahan those mind Fs that most buayas apply nowadays, so it's a training too......

It's also very disturbing when u have a long hitter at the range with you. I was ranging today and came lowhan academy. Very sad when u see mr low hittin his 6 iron to 200m on the flight scope. And the same numbers came out when I hit my 3 wood. Sad
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