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samT
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:21 pm

alvin7379 wrote:
Good information... But the question is... Understanding the concept and execution are 2 very different things...

Perhaps too many concepts might confuse one further? I believe in focusing more on the execution and make reasonable tweaks to make it more effective. Because every golfer have their swing limitations/ body limitations... Swing olready difficult and we throw in tons of new/ old flight laws... How to ever play and enjoy good golf?

scratch

Effective golf instead of perfect golf... Thats where a good coach differs from 'text book' coaches... My 2c...
I agree abt keeping it simple, especially for beginners. I often find it amazing to read some of the advices given in this forum. I think they do confuse the beginners a fair bit. Actually my coach taught me zero theory, he says can hit and enjoy can liao. Very Happy

But i do think that it is interesting to learn some «science« behind the golf swing and related stuff. This is probably a level where a golfer is seeking to understand why somethings happen the way they do, and the golfer is able to relate the science to what he /she is doing. The key point is seek to understand, be realistic that most of us can't do «perfect«.

My 2c.
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golfernatic
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:55 pm

zixter wrote:
Experienced this once. Long story short, a man in his 40s in front of my bay keep hitting slices but still gave the people around him an accomplished and feel good look. When i was setting up half way he asked "want to learn driver from me?". I said "no, i am good thanks". He gave a pissed off look and replied "EHHHHHHHH RELAX LAAAAA" ...

what's his probrem man...

Can't help but just laugh at this one.....comical. Once in a while we do get a dose of comedy at the range. Very Happy Actually an appropriate answer would be: "Thanks....I am straight now. When I need to learn how to fade or slice I call you....do you have a name card???" Very Happy
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:09 pm

alvin7379 wrote:
Good information... But the question is... Understanding the concept and execution are 2 very different things...

Yes. They are two different things.

If one understands the correct theory, ie. new ball flight laws, one at least have a chance of executing it correctly. Actually, with this, it's not difficult to hit draws or fades.

If one learnt incorrect theory, old ball flight laws, we'll hook when we try to draw and slice when we try to fade.

Then we try to 'fix' it by adjusting the timing of the hands, etc. Compensations on top of a flaw. Talk about confusing.

alvin7379 wrote:

Perhaps too many concepts might confuse one further? I believe in focusing more on the execution and make reasonable tweaks to make it more effective. Because every golfer have their swing limitations/ body limitations... Swing olready difficult and we throw in tons of new/ old flight laws... How to ever play and enjoy good golf?

scratch

For an example of confusing, see my point above.

If the execution is based on old ball flight laws, no amount of 'reasonable tweaking' will make it 'effective.'

Or are you saying you just want to hit it straight, instead of drawing or fading?

Even so, imagine if we were hitting it straight. Then the shots started hooking. Or slicing.

Now, without knowing the correct ball flight laws, how would one go about fixing it?

alvin7379 wrote:

Effective golf instead of perfect golf... Thats where a good coach differs from 'text book' coaches... My 2c...

To each his own.

For me, to be effective, I need to know what is happening. To be able to read my ball flight and fix it in the next shot.

I also enjoy knowing what is happening in order to decide what to do about it.

The new ball flight laws, ie. the D Plane. is actually nothing that new, nor that intimidating.

It is considered basic general knowledge for a golfer in other golfing forums, which I enjoy learning from, and the discussions can get quite deep, being frequented by many pros, scratch players, single handicappers and people who drive 300 yards or more. Maybe that's why they are so accepting of knowledge.
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TourSwing
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:24 pm

D plane explained ... in 40 mins!

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:26 pm

Ah, good old Brian Manzella. Very earnest coach. Passionate. Also got lots to say.

samT wrote:
alvin7379 wrote:
Good information... But the question is... Understanding the concept and execution are 2 very different things...

Perhaps too many concepts might confuse one further? I believe in focusing more on the execution and make reasonable tweaks to make it more effective. Because every golfer have their swing limitations/ body limitations... Swing olready difficult and we throw in tons of new/ old flight laws... How to ever play and enjoy good golf?

scratch

Effective golf instead of perfect golf... Thats where a good coach differs from 'text book' coaches... My 2c...
I agree abt keeping it simple, especially for beginners. I often find it amazing to read some of the advices given in this forum. I think they do confuse the beginners a fair bit. Actually my coach taught me zero theory, he says can hit and enjoy can liao. Very Happy

But i do think that it is interesting to learn some «science« behind the golf swing and related stuff. This is probably a level where a golfer is seeking to understand why somethings happen the way they do, and the golfer is able to relate the science to what he /she is doing. The key point is seek to understand, be realistic that most of us can't do «perfect«.

My 2c.

I am guessing this forum is read not just by beginners.

For those who are unfamiliar with D Plane, they can read and decide for themselves whether or not to use it.

It helped me tremendously when I learnt about it when I was starting. I started to enjoy doglegs instead of fearing them.

Am putting it here because Sandkie asked. Tried to keep it as simple as I could, but perhaps I should have tried harder. Although, it takes a lot less than 40 minutes to read my post.

Well, here's someone whose job is based on making it simple for his mass audience, Michael Breed on the Golf Channel. He does not go too deep into D plane, but uses it to explain what determine the initial ball direction. He also gives a good demo of how the club face influences the initial ball direction much more than club path.

And don't worry, this video is only 2 minutes.



Peace.
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Yeoyc
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:32 pm

My thought is that we may be not able to execute correctly but if I know the hows and whys then I can try to improve over time. If not sure how or why then just beating balls and try this try that. I guess the laws are set in stone and the ball will fly accordingly.
As for lousy players trying to teach others, I am a victim of such thing. My colleague was trying to help but now I realise he just screw me up and now I have bad habits and a bad back.
He meant well and I was a newb but having my time over I would not have taken his advice
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sandkie
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:38 pm

Hi, Lee

Thanks for the info...
Maybe it is better to start a new thread to discuss this....

I have just spent two hours reading this article

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

It is a revelation to me....
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:45 pm

sandkie wrote:
Hi, Lee

Thanks for the info...
Maybe it is better to start a new thread to discuss this....

I have just spent two hours reading this article

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

It is a revelation to me....

Sandkie,

it's my pleasure. If it helps even just one person, I'm gratified.

When you next go to the range, you'd be having fun testing it out. And hitting fade and draw too!

You're right, best to start a new thread on this. Why don't you start and put what you learnt after that two hours study?

Cheers.
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gunship
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:19 pm

kevlee69 wrote:
Was at Toa Payoh range the other day and was doing my own thing when a whole group of about 5-6 people came to the bays behind me. They were obviously all new to golf and were nice folks trying to do their own practice except for one loud-mouth guy in his 50s who was walking around and talking like a hotshot. He was going from bay to bay teaching the group and was focusing most of his time on one young teenage girl. From the rubbish that he was telling them, you know he is a joker. And true enough, when he tried to demo, I was watching with great anticipation.

First shot- duff and ball went 10m- his excuse "grip slippery"
Second shot- slice and ball went 30 m but way right
Third shot- duff again

And guess what ? He actually told the girl "see this is how you must hit !" And he continued to walk around like a hotshot and going to every bay teaching the others how to duff and shank balls. Why do idiots like this guy exist ? For our entertainment ?

My father is coming to mid 60s and i am in my mid 30s. He plays off probably high 20s while i am a single. I still get lessons from him.
But i am thankful that golf is the only bonding thing we have in common. Over the years, i have learnt how to 'listen' to his golf advice.
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Slicer51
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:16 pm

sandkie wrote:
Hi, Lee

Thanks for the info...
Maybe it is better to start a new thread to discuss this....

I have just spent two hours reading this article

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

It is a revelation to me....

I think this is a great article that all golfer should read. Thanks Sandkie
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:31 pm

Sandkie, we have discussed the new ball flight laws before, check out past threads/posts by right sided coach. Search for "ball flight laws"
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:40 pm

Bro, where got ?... I cannot find .. please direct me there Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:34 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
That's amateurs giving unsolicited advice.

How about paid professionals teaching wrong 'knowledge'?

I was at a hitting bay and there was this confident, loud expat coach from a local golf school coaching some young students, so I couldn't help overhearing every thing he said.

And he was teaching them, "The swing path determines where your ball goes initially, and the club face determines where the ball curves at the end."

I thought to myself, "Uh oh, old ball flight laws."

He had them hit shots one by one and call out where the path was pointing and where the club face was pointing based on the shape of the shots. The aim was so that they can diagnose and fix their swing in the middle of the round based on the shape of the shot. Unfortunately, using wrong laws meant the diagnosis was doomed from the start. I cringed slightly.

Then, the straw that broke the camel's back, he proudly informed his students, "That's called the ball flight laws."

I silently picked up my jaw from the ground.

I am sure he meant well, to the extent of his knowledge. But he should update his knowledge. Jorgensen published his book in 1994. 17 years on, by now, all coaches should know about the 'new' ball flight laws.

The parents who sent their kids to him, I'm sure, are paying a premium for a foreign coach. They deserve correct teachings at least.

Hi Lee, I have to just add my penny's worth here.... we had this discussion/row a long time ago on the "new ball laws".

I I dont think it is fair that you are insinuating that the parent is not getting their moneys worth because YOU dont agree with someones teaching method.

My reasoning.... I just fininshed a discussion with a coach who teaches many "stars".

And one of those stars is in the top 50 in the world and currently top 5 in Hong Kong so far, and the player FLATLY refuses to accept the new laws, because he has played all his life with old laws, this bloke can shape the ball anyway he wants, and in his mind he is doing it based on his knowledge of the old laws.

You are right though, coaches do need to try to keep up with the latest in methods. Dont get me started on Brian Manzella though... Shocked

I think at a beginner stage of their career they are happy to see flight, direction will come... Beer



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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:07 pm

Slicer51 wrote:
Bro, where got ?... I cannot find .. please direct me there Very Happy

e.g. http://www.golfrepublic.org/t6824-in-to-out-out-to-in-swing

also found on thread called "shot shaping" and thread about trackman newsletter etc
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:28 pm

shorthitter wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
That's amateurs giving unsolicited advice.

How about paid professionals teaching wrong 'knowledge'?

I was at a hitting bay and there was this confident, loud expat coach from a local golf school coaching some young students, so I couldn't help overhearing every thing he said.

And he was teaching them, "The swing path determines where your ball goes initially, and the club face determines where the ball curves at the end."

I thought to myself, "Uh oh, old ball flight laws."

He had them hit shots one by one and call out where the path was pointing and where the club face was pointing based on the shape of the shots. The aim was so that they can diagnose and fix their swing in the middle of the round based on the shape of the shot. Unfortunately, using wrong laws meant the diagnosis was doomed from the start. I cringed slightly.

Then, the straw that broke the camel's back, he proudly informed his students, "That's called the ball flight laws."

I silently picked up my jaw from the ground.

I am sure he meant well, to the extent of his knowledge. But he should update his knowledge. Jorgensen published his book in 1994. 17 years on, by now, all coaches should know about the 'new' ball flight laws.

The parents who sent their kids to him, I'm sure, are paying a premium for a foreign coach. They deserve correct teachings at least.

Hi Lee, I have to just add my penny's worth here.... we had this discussion/row a long time ago on the "new ball laws".

I I dont think it is fair that you are insinuating that the parent is not getting their moneys worth because YOU dont agree with someones teaching method.

My reasoning.... I just fininshed a discussion with a coach who teaches many "stars".

And one of those stars is in the top 50 in the world and currently top 5 in Hong Kong so far, and the player FLATLY refuses to accept the new laws, because he has played all his life with old laws, this bloke can shape the ball anyway he wants, and in his mind he is doing it based on his knowledge of the old laws.

You are right though, coaches do need to try to keep up with the latest in methods. Dont get me started on Brian Manzella though... Shocked

I think at a beginner stage of their career they are happy to see flight, direction will come... Beer

Hi Shorthitter,

Thanks for your comments. My thoughts below.

I I dont think it is fair that you are insinuating that the parent is not getting their moneys worth because YOU dont agree with someones teaching method.

Not picking any bones about his method. The information ('knowledge') he was imparting was incorrect.

And one of those stars is in the top 50 in the world and currently top 5 in Hong Kong so far, and the player FLATLY refuses to accept the new laws, because he has played all his life with old laws, this bloke can shape the ball anyway he wants, and in his mind he is doing it based on his knowledge of the old laws.

Which means what he is actually doing is not what he thinks he is doing. And he is getting the results he wants, that's cool for him. But if he tries to teach someone else...

Beyond the top 5 in Hong Kong, Jack Nicklaus won all those majors on old ball flight laws. That does not mean old ball flight laws should continue to be taught, now that we our knowledge has improved with technology.

It's like when Isaac Newton figured out the sun does not revolve around the earth. That idea encountered a lot of resistance too, like most ideas that challenge established mindsets.

You are right though, coaches do need to try to keep up with the latest in methods. Dont get me started on Brian Manzella though... Shocked

If by methods you mean the latest in knowledge, yes, absolutely, I agree with you. I see a distinction between method and knowledge/facts.

BM, ha ha. Yes, he is quite a character isn't he. And ruffling A LOT of feathers of his coaching peers at the moment it seems. Maybe he is a bit quick to jump to conclusions based on scientific models. But he is provoking a lot of debate which moves the thinking forward.

I think at a beginner stage of their career they are happy to see flight, direction will come... Beer


Yes, I agree with you, they'd be happy just to see flight. Heck, I'd be happy to see flight, esp when in the rough. Laughing Laughing Laughing

But the coach in question above was teaching them specifically how to diagnose the causes of the ball flight shape, using old ball flight laws. So, the diagnosis is already doomed from the start.

Eventually, with practice, the student will learn to compensate when the ball does not go where it's supposed to. But then that's a compensation.

I used to have a hard time hitting a draw where I want it to go. I'd slam the ball right into the tree I was trying to avoid. Why? Because of old ball flight laws. With new ball flight laws, avoiding the tree is a cinch.

No offence intended, and certainly not trying to insinuate/paint all expat coaches with the same brush (not sure if I worded that correctly..)

Peace.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:56 pm

Lee,

Teaching something you believe ie. Old school thoughts, swing or flight laws, is not wrong. Its what each of us believes in. For the merits is that it works and has been around for donkey years.

An good example, Moe Norman Swings, its unique and different. Some might add, it extra ordinary. For some one that believes in it and started teaching on it whether they are good at it or not, that is not wrong.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:02 pm

Khorkar wrote:
Lee,

Teaching something you believe ie. Old school thoughts, swing or flight laws, is not wrong. Its what each of us believes in. For the merits is that it works and has been around for donkey years.

An good example, Moe Norman Swings, its unique and different. Some might add, it extra ordinary. For some one that believes in it and started teaching on it whether they are good at it or not, that is not wrong.

Khorkar,

Nothing wrong with Moe's swing. In fact, it can be found as one of the swings cataloged by TGM.

How to put this diplomatically... old ball flight laws DOES NOT WORK without compensations. Because we are dealing with physics, not faith, what we believe is simply irrelevant. So, with respect, the information is wrong. End of story.

Peace.

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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:43 pm

I have to agree with Lee on this. The laws are the laws and it has been proven by trackman data. As for the player SH is referring to, he may not believe them or think he is hitting the ball the way the new ball flights say but I am sure if this player was put on a trackman, the data would prove otherwise.
Jack Nicklaus wrote a book many years ago explaining what he thought he was doing in his swing. He was later quiet shocked when he wasn't actually doing what he thought. He now regrets ever writing that book and wishes he could get back every copy printed and have them burned. Unfortunately so many copies were sold worldwide that that will never happen. A whole generation of golfers grew up believing what Jack wrote and I believe it is a reason why golfers struggle so much today. He was the greatest player of all time so the readers followed what he wrote to disastrous effect. In the book he wrote he also described hitting fades and draws using the old ball flight laws.
I was also taught the old ball flight laws as a junior and still went by them up until a few years back when a very knowledgable forum member here made me aware of the trackman report. It changed my teaching completely and also my own way of playing.
All golfers feel one thing but may be doing something else. I see it in my coaching every day. Its not until I show the student a video of their swing that they are shocked at what they see. I am sure the same case would happen on a trackman.
Nick Faldo was another who explained on TV commentary how to hit a draw. Here is the screen capture indicating he has explained the old laws. The guy won 6 majors with false info...go figure

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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:56 pm

Heres Jack explaining how to fade the ball in the Golf My Way video. He is using the old laws here.
According to trackman and the new laws, that would actually cause a push slice

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Very Lousy Players Who Try To Teach Others Golf   Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:21 am

Interesting posts, Right_sided_coach. I did not know Jack wanted to burn his books. A belief, once set, is a very hard thing to change, else it won't be a belief. I admire the courage and character you had to change your mindset and belief once you'd discovered the true ball flight laws.

Without ever practicing a single fade or draw shot with my current swing which I have been building last few months, I entered a small friendly tournament and managed to fade and draw driver and 3 wood to hit 9 of 14 fairways, at Impian Kajang, a narrow course with plenty of doglegs. Just by employing what Jorgensen wrote in his book, Physics of Golf. I continue to be amazed by Dr. Jorgensen's insight. Got to the point where fade or draw actually felt more comfortable than a purely straight shot.

Just saying, correct knowledge, regardless of the experience of the person imparting it, is power. And the reverse also holds.

Peace.
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