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 Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion

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Begbie
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:47 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
Ah, I see. The stinger w 3 wood is really fun to try off the deck. When you pull it off from the fairway, it's really satisfying. No issue with popping up the shot that way. Really hitting down, de-lofting the clubface with hands further ahead than usual.

What the body will find odd are the angles, which would seem a little out, until one gets used to it.

In my case, I find I do not need to deloft or hit down that much, just ball back in the stance, and the shot will come out pretty low.

Have fun!

Tried this earlier in the course, ball slightly back, slightly open stance..... ball flight low, stinger shot with a bit cut fade... only to realise there is water hazard on the right which can't be seen from where I was hitting..

Perfect execution but can't say the same about my course management.... bogeyed the hole from nowhere...

But now since the ball flight is more predictable with the set up.. I will definitely try it again when opportunity arise...Smile
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Some additional technical info   Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:21 pm

For my fellow technical golf geeks, some useful info.

I've always wanted a picture of how the different clubs vary in terms of the effect of club face vs club path on launch direction.

Finally found this useful graph.

It shows how much the face angle determines the launch direction of the ball vs the club path, comparing driver, 6 iron and 9 iron. It shows how ball speed affects the influence as well.

Note that the higher the ball speed, the influence of face angle trends upward (only slightly, but the upward trend is definitely there), and the less the influence of club path.

So, apart from loft, ball speed is also a factor. Which reminds me, I made a comment earlier that speed was not a factor; I was wrong. Speed is a factor, albeit slightly.

For those interested, the 2nd graph shows the influence of dynamic loft versus attack angle upon launch angle.



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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Hitting Tiger's Stinger, modified   Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:36 pm

As we know, Tiger has a stinger shot for windy conditions (I think it's a low draw) that stays low and runs out with a long roll.

Today I found myself having to hit a reverse of that, a low cut fade that stays low and runs. Found myself under some pine trees on the right rough in a long par 5. Being in the rough, draw is out, I must cut. But to avoid the low hanging branches, the pine trees were too tall, going over is not an option, so I must keep the fade low, yet generate enough spin to launch out of the rough.

Chose a 5 iron, make the right wrist bend a bit firm, put the ball back in the stance to keep it low, align feet and body well left, club face aimed slightly left of the target line, using D plane. Through impact, maintain the feel of the right wrist bend to keep from closing the club face too soon. The shot came off beautifully as planned, flew long and low, kept below the branches with a nice roll out, leaving 155m for the final approach. That was my shot of the day.

A bit amazed to pull that off, never practiced that before, esp not out of the rough. But after getting used to D plane, coming up with the set up was natural and instinctive.
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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:45 pm

Wow... must be a long par 5.... punch out with 5 iron still left with 155m. So what you hit for that hole???
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andrew-golf
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:09 pm

I'm excited to see the execution of such shots...

Perhaps we can form 2 flights, invite Lee to be part of these 2 flights, and we can all learn


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dmateo
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:48 pm

Lee is in Malaysia though, so we need to either drive up there or he needs to come down or we can meet somewhere in the middle.

Cheers,
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:21 pm

duffader wrote:
Wow... must be a long par 5.... punch out with 5 iron still left with 155m. So what you hit for that hole???

Caddy recommended 6 iron from 155m downhill, but I opted for 7 iron, which was short. The caddy knew her stuff it turned out. The divot grabs and slows down the club and the afternoon was humid, so I should have listened to the caddy. Chipped past the hole, downhill 2 putt for bogey. Else it would have been a neat story, too bad.

andrew-golf wrote:
I'm excited to see the execution of such shots...

Perhaps we can form 2 flights, invite Lee to be part of these 2 flights, and we can all learn


It's a mutual learning experience, as I am also still learning too.

dmateo wrote:
Lee is in Malaysia though, so we need to either drive up there or he needs to come down or we can meet somewhere in the middle.

Cheers,

I am sure the opportunity will present itself in the near future, which I am looking forward to.

Some additional update. Today played at KGSAAS, night golf after that game at Rahman Putra in the morning and made some additional discoveries.

Played a few cut fade shots from the rough and made some interesting discoveries, this time cow grass rough instead of bermuda rough. It had rained earlier just before our tee off, so the course was damp.

Using D plane to set up for a cut fade whenever I landed in the thick stuff, I found that instead of fading, the ball tend to go straight according to my feet alignment. I think friction is an issue. When I can't get clean ball first contact in the rough, the wet grass lubricates the contact and friction is reduced. So the ball flies out nicely, but straight according to where my body and feet are aiming, instead of fading as expected.

At the finishing hole, managed to hit a 5-iron cut shot out of the rough which went quite high and far. Having learnt that it will not fade back, I used my feet to aim the cut straight at the green, and it went straight. That was a nice feeling.

Most of us are experts in this I'm sure, but fyi for those still new to the game, a draw shot from the rough is seldom a good idea. It's difficult to get the ball to spin fast enough to launch from the rough with a draw shot because the club face is slightly delofted, compared to a cut fade shot, where loft is slightly increased. I am discovering that being able to hit a cut fade is an invaluable tool when I find myself in the rough.
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golf_snowman
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:08 pm

finally got a chance to read thru all 8 pages in this thread...

kudo to Lee36328, indeed very informative...

I have written down some main points on my golf's notebook...will bring that to range to test it out..

in general, my ball flight for driver is fade to slice....and i have been trying to correct it for a long time...hopfully can see some result.

thank you so much
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gingerus
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:45 pm

thanks for sharing! took me awhile to read thru the entire thread. definitely will try this out next time Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:12 am

today finally got a chance to try it out in the range...

was really surprise to see that i could hit a draw using my driver....i was like hitting about 50 balls on my driver and non went slicing, i have a few mild fade but most of the ball went either straight or draw. i also had a few hook...

in general, i would say about 80% of the ball flight were satisfactory (straight or draw)

i guess the next thing is to have a few more range session on this and then bring it to the course...

thank you so much...yeah yeah !!!
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peter.golfer
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:52 am

Wow! Time for u to give strokes, snowman.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:55 am

peter.golfer wrote:
Wow! Time for u to give strokes, snowman.

What a Face What a Face What a Face
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:40 am

gingerus wrote:
thanks for sharing! took me awhile to read thru the entire thread. definitely will try this out next time Very Happy

golf_snowman wrote:
today finally got a chance to try it out in the range...

was really surprise to see that i could hit a draw using my driver....i was like hitting about 50 balls on my driver and non went slicing, i have a few mild fade but most of the ball went either straight or draw. i also had a few hook...

in general, i would say about 80% of the ball flight were satisfactory (straight or draw)

i guess the next thing is to have a few more range session on this and then bring it to the course...

thank you so much...yeah yeah !!!

You guys are all very welcome. Many thanks also to everyone who shared their experience here, making the game more enjoyable to all of us.

Very uplifting to hear the results of fellow golfers who tried it and gave feedback here or via PM to me. Keep it up guys.

I remember the first round where I could finally bend the driver shot left or right to fit the dogleg, boy oh boy, there is no more empowering feeling than that.

But I have to watch my tendency to overdo and use too much of a good thing, and slice instead of fade my driver, esp since it sits slightly open faced. So, watch out for this minor point guys.

Apart from that, enjoy your new 'toy'. It's almost like having a new club, one that can bend it on command.

Also, it's a useful too to diagnose my swing and fix it on the spot on the course. When I hit a shape I don't want, say a slice, looking at the initial ball direction gives me my club face, and the final ball flight shape gives me my swing path. Then I know what to fix for the next tee shot. How cool is that?
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:03 am

golf_snowman wrote:
peter.golfer wrote:
Wow! Time for u to give strokes, snowman.

What a Face What a Face What a Face

can you apply D plane on your bunker shots? What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:09 am

pushslice wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
peter.golfer wrote:
Wow! Time for u to give strokes, snowman.

What a Face What a Face What a Face

can you apply D plane on your bunker shots? What a Face

Bro,

Do not like that la .. I am still trying the hit the ball out of bunker and you want to shape your ball from bunker ? Laughing Laughing

It is difficult to shape from rough ( for me). From bunker Rolling Eyes

I can fade my bunker shots though .. really fade like h*ll White Flag
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:09 pm

pushslice wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
peter.golfer wrote:
Wow! Time for u to give strokes, snowman.

What a Face What a Face What a Face

can you apply D plane on your bunker shots? What a Face

Can u try first ? Later u teach me...haha!!
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:19 pm

Click on the link to see one of the simplest explaination on D-Plane, presented by Josh Zander (teaching professional at Stanford University Golf Course). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GUZ3VYj0oiQ

I have always liked his way of explaining how a golf swing works. There are certain "Rules" that always apply (eg, D-Plane law, its a physics law, if you do this, with clubhead facing there, ball will travel like this... you cannot change a physical law).

However, HOW do you get the swing plane here or there? HOW do you get the club head facing this way or that way? Physical law applies to everyone, but everyone will swing a golf club differently. That is what the majority of us amature golfers (meaning you, me, he and she - almost started a song there! Very Happy ) have to get OUR OWN swing right before dwelling into deeper stuff. And when I say get the swing right, it means getting it the same all the time. And if you have done that - grooving a consistent swing - then understanding D-Plane will help you improve your game even further. I have played with TS (Bro Lee36328) and know of his dedication in learning and improving his golf swing. His dedication comes second to none. And I think his swing is consistent enough to be dabbing into the finer details ala D-Plane.

For more good golf swing tips, view Josh Zander's instructional videos (from My Smart Golf - look for his videos on YouTube). Especially important is the one describing the 2 different ways of releasing the clubhead. Remember, we must learn HOW to square the clubhead consistently first before being able to apply it to D-Plane physics.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:47 pm

jjteoh wrote:
Click on the link to see one of the simplest explaination on D-Plane, presented by Josh Zander (teaching professional at Stanford University Golf Course). http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=GUZ3VYj0oiQ

I have always liked his way of explaining how a golf swing works. There are certain "Rules" that always apply (eg, D-Plane law, its a physics law, if you do this, with clubhead facing there, ball will travel like this... you cannot change a physical law).

However, HOW do you get the swing plane here or there? HOW do you get the club head facing this way or that way? Physical law applies to everyone, but everyone will swing a golf club differently. That is what the majority of us amature golfers (meaning you, me, he and she - almost started a song there! Very Happy ) have to get OUR OWN swing right before dwelling into deeper stuff. And when I say get the swing right, it means getting it the same all the time. And if you have done that - grooving a consistent swing - then understanding D-Plane will help you improve your game even further. I have played with TS (Bro Lee36328) and know of his dedication in learning and improving his golf swing. His dedication comes second to none. And I think his swing is consistent enough to be dabbing into the finer details ala D-Plane.

For more good golf swing tips, view Josh Zander's instructional videos (from My Smart Golf - look for his videos on YouTube). Especially important is the one describing the 2 different ways of releasing the clubhead. Remember, we must learn HOW to square the clubhead consistently first before being able to apply it to D-Plane physics.

Hi JJ,

Nice to see you here again. When you going to teach me to play again ?
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:00 pm

Just to add, for those interested in learning how to swing on ONE plane (as compared to the 2 plane swing), Josh's OPS video is again one of the easiest to understand.

His OPS video is split into 2 parts, One Plane backswing and One Plane downswing.

Links are:

Backswing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ddz-Pxj5WTU

Downswing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Izp9Jrirk1Q

I find that the best sequence to follow is (1) Backswing video, (2) Downswing video, (3) Hitting Down video (4) Releasing the Clubhead video (5) Impact Position video (6) Swing Path video (7) Shot Shaping video then last but not least (8) D-Plane video.

All his videos can be found in Youtube, check for My Smart Golf.

Beer Here's to hoping the New Year brings better golf to everyone cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Slicer51 wrote:

Hi JJ,

Nice to see you here again. When you going to teach me to play again ?

Hi Slicer, great to hear from you.

If Lee36328's dedication in learning is second to none, you come in just a notch behind him! (This is a guy who flies in to Singapore from Surabaya, Indonesia just to take lessons from his coach!!!)

Golf is easy to learn, but difficult to master.

I am not qualified to teach you my good friend, buy will always enjoyed a good round with you. Very Happy
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:59 am

Very nice to hear from the seasoned low handicapper, jjteoh. I've had the pleasure of playing with him a couple of times, and folks, he's got some serious game, and he knows what he is talking about.

He is right, consistency is important. When I was having a habit of hitting of the toe w the driver, I got plenty of gear effect instead of D-plane. So it was a big curving draw that didn't go very far. D-plane really came alive for me when I achieved consistent near/around the middle of the club face contact.

For those just starting out, you can feel gear effect if the club twists in your hands at impact, either twisting open (impact near the toe) or close (impact near the heel.) Toe impact promotes an exaggerated draw/hook and heel impact, fade.

I found for myself, the effect of hitting near the heel not as pronounced as toe. In fact, the irons (MP52) feels quite solid slightly near the heel. After a bout of shanking w the baby blades in the beginning, this habit soon stopped. With a face so small, slightly near the heel means very near the hosel. Laughing

If we get comfortable bending tee shots w D plane, doglegs become something to be enjoyed. I especially like narrow dogleg left or right, trees on the inside (to block those attempting a straight Tiger line) and hazard/OB on the outside. It's a standard course design template for doglegs it seems. Instead of seeking safety w a wood/hybrid, we can confidently unsheath our drivers.

If one bends it well, it leaves one with a short, straightforward approach shot. As your mates are either caught in the trees or hazard/OB or laid up well behind you, you are almost guaranteed to be one shot up. Esp nice with some small bets at stake. Then one would appreciate how it pays off to learn and master D plane. Cool

Ironically, now I need more practice with narrow fairways which are straight. Shocked I think I'll start playing Seri Selangor more often. And learn to love it.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:59 am

For the technically-inclined among us.

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Bro Lee,

This is interesting. If I am reading this correctly.

Soren Hansen hit so much inside 3.8 with an open club face of -1.3 but because it hit on the heel. It still hit a draw ? Am I correct. Please correct me if I am incorrect.

If he has hit in centre of club face. What would be the ball flight be ? Shouldn't it be a hook ?

Again, am I correct to say. Hitting from inside might not always be good;

inside swing with a square club face = hook or straight draw ?
inside swing with a open club face = push fade or push slice ?

Or, am I all got confused now :-)
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:24 pm

Slicer51 wrote:
Bro Lee,

This is interesting. If I am reading this correctly.

Soren Hansen hit so much inside 3.8 with an open club face of -1.3 but because it hit on the heel. It still hit a draw ? Am I correct. Please correct me if I am incorrect.

If he has hit in centre of club face. What would be the ball flight be ? Shouldn't it be a hook ?

Again, am I correct to say. Hitting from inside might not always be good;

inside swing with a square club face = hook or straight draw ?
inside swing with a open club face = push fade or push slice ?

Or, am I all got confused now :-)

Here's a good explanation which addresses your shot shape questions.

http://www.mattreagangolf.com/golf_instruction/trackman-new-ball-flight-laws/d-plane-how-to-read-trackman-numbers-understanding-clubface-direction-in-relation-to-the-path-to-get-draws-fades-and-straight-flight/

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:50 am

I did not know there were 3 ways to hit a straight shot. Straight club path, outside in, and inside out.

Interesting.

Check out pages 3 - 5, and Table 1 on page 4.

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter4.pdf
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