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 Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion

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solarpop
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:04 am

Begbie wrote:
solarpop wrote:
Begbie wrote:
Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.


Don't mean to be an ass, but why are you playing from the blue tees if you're shooting in the 90s?

they like to make their money's worth and go blue.


That's exactly the mentality that slows down the game. I mean if it's a quiet day and there isn't anyone on the course, by all means, play from the gold tees, hit multiple balls, who cares right. Almost every time i play a game that becomes a slow, long drawn ordeal, it's because of a flight of clowns who are playing from the wrong tees. If these people really want to make their money's worth, shouldn't they play from the whites where the game is easier and more enjoyable? If they think that golf is about hitting as many shots as possible, then they should stay at the range.

If you really must know, i never played the blue tees until i got my handicap to around 15. Even now, i play white tees most of the time.

I apologize for getting OT on the thread, will not reply any more in regards to this issue.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:13 am

Hi bro,

An avid learner as usual. Smile Keep it up and you'll be scratch soon.

Slicer51 wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:


my clubface is closed at setup and body aligned to target, that explains my fade shot shape?

Be careful, the club face angle at set up is usually not the same as the club face angle at impact. So, do an impact fix to find out the club face angle at impact, and adjust set up accordingly.

But you're right, body aligned to target, and hitting up on driver, usually causes a fade or slice. For irons, usually causes hooks.


Lee,

Let me start this discussion too. Base on your explanation above. If I set up body aligned to target with a my driver clubface address slightly closed (presume impact club face is the same as address). It will usually cause a fade or slice.

Is it because of my swing path angle ? As you mention driver hitting up tend to be a out to in swing path.

Exactly. You are hitting up, impact is past low point of the swing arc, so club head is going back in as it goes up. That's why you have a slightly outside in path at impact. Your club face is slightly open to the club path at impact, causing a fade or slice. If your club face was square to your club path, you will pull, a straight shot to the left of the target.

In other words .. slightly out to in swing path angle usually produce a fade. If more out to in swing path angle usually produce a slice ? Do I understand correctly ?

Assuming the clubface is slightly open to the swing path with the same amount, then yes to both.

Bro, from the sound of it, you are not squaring up the club face enough at impact, ie. the club face is slightly open to the path. So the best you can do in this case is a fade.

To hit a straight shot, set up with the club face more closed. Or release more strongly to close the club face more at impact. The shot will slice/fade less and less until it becomes a straight pull. Then, just close your stance, keeping everything the same relative to your stance, to aim the pull at the target - you'll get a straight shot.


Peace.
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solarpop
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:17 am

Begbie wrote:
solarpop wrote:
Lee, thanks for sharing. As usual your posts are always very informative and will serve to raise the level of awareness in general on the forum in the long run.

All this theory is very good, but totally useless if you don't have a sound, repeatable swing with strong fundamentals in the first place. Among all my regular kakis (most of them shoot in the low 90s), i think only 2 of them will get ball-first contact. For the rest of them, understanding the D-plane and ball flight laws would not help at all. In fact, the only thing it will achieve is to screw up their alignment.

Before you apply any of this theory to your game, look at your current state and honestly decide where you are. If you have never ever seen a divot in front of where your ball was after a shot, don't bother with this just yet...

A repeatable sound swing is only possible with good basic, set up and coaching.... Thats what my lessons are for.

From what I understood about Lee's post is purely ball flight for various clubs, ball location etc. As usual with any theory, some will falter while some filters thru... thats why there are many subjects offered in uni coz not everyone will excel in one...

FYI, there are more ppl playing golf other than just ur friends.

I think you're missing my point totally. To apply these ball flight laws, one must have attained quite a high level of ability in the game. The basis of this theory is that you're hitting down on iron shots, and hitting up on the driver. For the vast majority of golfers, they are picking their iron shots, and hitting down on the driver.
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Begbie
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:20 am

solarpop wrote:
Begbie wrote:
solarpop wrote:
Begbie wrote:
Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.


Don't mean to be an ass, but why are you playing from the blue tees if you're shooting in the 90s?

they like to make their money's worth and go blue.


That's exactly the mentality that slows down the game. I mean if it's a quiet day and there isn't anyone on the course, by all means, play from the gold tees, hit multiple balls, who cares right. Almost every time i play a game that becomes a slow, long drawn ordeal, it's because of a flight of clowns who are playing from the wrong tees. If these people really want to make their money's worth, shouldn't they play from the whites where the game is easier and more enjoyable? If they think that golf is about hitting as many shots as possible, then they should stay at the range.

If you really must know, i never played the blue tees until i got my handicap to around 15. Even now, i play white tees most of the time.

I apologize for getting OT on the thread, will not reply any more in regards to this issue.

U must have been bitten by guys who plays slow when from blue, so have all of us..... dun pass your judgment the same u did about my reg kakis with assuming since they play with me , we must be having the same handicap.

And about u being 15 b4 playing from blue.. not everyone is u and u are not everyone and golf is not just played with you and ur regular kakis...

The same for me, I will not respond in this issue and not OT anymore...Cheers

Peace.. cheers cheers
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Begbie
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:35 am

solarpop wrote:
Begbie wrote:
solarpop wrote:
Lee, thanks for sharing. As usual your posts are always very informative and will serve to raise the level of awareness in general on the forum in the long run.

All this theory is very good, but totally useless if you don't have a sound, repeatable swing with strong fundamentals in the first place. Among all my regular kakis (most of them shoot in the low 90s), i think only 2 of them will get ball-first contact. For the rest of them, understanding the D-plane and ball flight laws would not help at all. In fact, the only thing it will achieve is to screw up their alignment.

Before you apply any of this theory to your game, look at your current state and honestly decide where you are. If you have never ever seen a divot in front of where your ball was after a shot, don't bother with this just yet...

A repeatable sound swing is only possible with good basic, set up and coaching.... Thats what my lessons are for.

From what I understood about Lee's post is purely ball flight for various clubs, ball location etc. As usual with any theory, some will falter while some filters thru... thats why there are many subjects offered in uni coz not everyone will excel in one...

FYI, there are more ppl playing golf other than just ur friends.

I think you're missing my point totally. To apply these ball flight laws, one must have attained quite a high level of ability in the game. The basis of this theory is that you're hitting down on iron shots, and hitting up on the driver. For the vast majority of golfers, they are picking their iron shots, and hitting down on the driver.

Let's put our previous issues apart. For the sake of objectivity, perhaps you may explain

1. What is a high level of ability in the game to just understand the plane? Its pure physics and numbers. Whether u can apply it, then its to your current ability. First understand the physics.

The same reason why I have only applied it to my driver. I do not even dare to touch my irons yet for the same reason u mentioned, I am picking the ball at times. But I know myself that I am sweeping the ball up with the driver.
So for anyone to try and grasp it, one has to know one's ability. Thats why this is exploring. In fact I just tried to share this with my regular kaki who's been playing for more than 10 years about mid 80s and stagnated for past few years about the plane on the drive as his mishits are normally a hook.

This is what he said to me thru' whassap while deliberating his drive...

"Bro, I have read all golf instructions since 2002 and I know more swing laws then u know.. no need to teach me lah.. my ball will naturally hook lah if I become handsy, nothing to do with D-plane or aeroplane.."

Well.. if one dun wanna be taught, then one wont grow... if you haven't actually tried it out, why not try to apply it on ur own swing, get good results and improve yourself....let the rest of the golfers decide for themselves...Smile

cheers cheers
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:51 am

Slicer51 wrote:
Lee,

Also, if long irons, wood to driver tend to produce an out to in swing path due to it arc is width.

ONLY IF you are hitting UP on the ball, ie. the ball is teed up. Otherwise, if hitting down on the ball for long irons and wood, the swing path at impact is still inside out, assuming square stance. When the arc is wide, the inside out effect is reduced. When the arc is small, like shorter iron, the inside out effect is increased.

By stand with your shoulder and stand slight pointing to the right of target. With long irons, wood and driver, does it give a better chance to get any in to out swing path ?

See my comments above. If ball is on the ground, you are hitting DOWN on it, not UP. So set up square, and the path will be slightly inside out for long clubs. The exception is when ball is on a tee, and you are hitting UP.

However, even with a in to out swing path IF

- the club face is open in impact, it will produce a draw

Not necessarily. It can produce a push, a big push slice (ball starts right, and goes way right), a draw, or even a push hook (ball starts right of target, but curls way left of target). It all depends on how big the difference is between the club face and swing path.

- the club face is square in impact, it will produce a straight draw or hook

Only a straight swing path and square club face will produce a straight shot. So in this case, a draw or hook is possible depending on the difference between the swing path and club face.


- What if the club face is close ? what will be the ball flight be ?

See below.

Do I made any sense here ?

Highly simplified version.

You aim where you want the ball to start, using the club face direction at impact.

You set where you want the ball to bend, using swing path, inside out or outside in or square relative to club face direction at impact (relative to target is not useful because target has no effect on ball flight.)

You set the amount of the bend, by altering the amount of outside in or inside out (again, relative to the club face at impact.) The greater the difference between the two, the more it will bend. Whether it's called a fade, slice, draw, hook, push, pull or straight is a perspective based on target. You just need to aim and bend the shot until it goes where you want it to go in the shape that you want.

Note that you will get more distance with a draw (will carry longer and roll more), but you will be able to stop the shot better with a fade.

Useful to play in different fairway and green layout and different speed.

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:53 am

Lee36328 wrote:
Here's Sean Foley talking about the changes Tiger had to make to hit the stinger again.

“Basically you have to be able to steepen the attack angle and when you do that the sweet spot, the path of the golf club is moving out to the right so typically when guys get steep they hook it,” said Foley as he walked with Woods during Wednesday’s pro-am at Sherwood Country Club.

“So if you noticed his practice swing there was a lot of swing and shift to the left. The more I’m hitting down the more I have to swing to the left.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/return-of-tigers-stinger/

Lee, thanks for posting this!!! Had been anxiously waiting for this Beer
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botak
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:08 am

Lee36328 wrote:
Wow, great responses and questions guys. Get me some time, I will get to the questions and reply in detail. Even responses for Andrew-golf and Botak are also useful to note, because it shows the full spectrum of how golfers think.

Boss,

You'll have to explain this to me when I see you in the future... I really tak faham...


Last edited by botak on Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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andrew-golf
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:30 am

there is freedom of topics sharing...

im jus saying some golfers prefer to enjoy golf.. and not too technical.. and I'm one of em

for me i always half swing for long clubs and punch my iron shots..

so there is no right or wrong...

i always play low 90s to high 80s.. depending on how my putting works on certain days...

so at the end of the day, its about the short game and putting..

swing wise... i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate...

good for discussion tho..

but this thread is very theoretical for me...

just me ....

no pun intended
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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:52 am

Thanks Justin for the video!

One thing to clarify, does it mean that it is easier to hit a straight shot with a short iron by not aligning your swing path to the target?

Lee, your comments appreciated as well.

Thanks!

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:02 pm

Slicer51 wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:

To further clarify, here's a picture of Ben Hogan set up his feet for different clubs below.



You will see that Ben Hogan's feet are open to target from wedge all the way to almost medium irons before the feet are finally square to target. Then from there, the feet are closed to target, for long iron and driver. This is a very clearly result of D plane, although Hogan did not know it at the time because it had not been discovered yet. With a clear understanding of D plane, Hogan's set up makes perfect sense.

It is often written that Ben Hogan was fighting a persistent hook early in his career. The hook was likely caused by hitting down on the ball, therefore the swing path at impact was naturally inside out. If the clubface was square, the ball hooks.

If you set up like this, and achieve a square club face at impact with a straight swing path, then it pretty much ensures your shots will go straight regardless of club length.

Peace.

Lee,

Last question. By using the example of Ben Hogan above. The ball position were all the same (slight left heel of the left foot). By opening and closing the feet and shoulder. It will compensate the arc of impact for wedges, short and mid irons ?

Yes. The feet position shows Hogan compensating in order to neutralize the inside out effect when hitting down on the ball. The shorter the club, the smaller the arc, the more he is hitting down which means the greater the inside out path, therefore the greater the compensation required in order to avoid hooking the ball.

Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:39 pm

Derek wrote:
Thanks Justin for the video!

One thing to clarify, does it mean that it is easier to hit a straight shot with a short iron by not aligning your swing path to the target?

Lee, your comments appreciated as well.

Thanks!

Simple Logic: The only way to hit a "100% true" straight shot is for the club path and club face to be square to the target line at impact.

The Complication: The shorter the iron the greater the Angle of Attack, and therefore the greater the horizontal swing plane has to be shifted left, in order for the club path and club face to be square to the target line at impact (straight shot). As a an extremely general estimate, for every degree a player hits down on the ball, the h. swing plane should be a degree left! For the same reason, for the driver, for every degree a player hits up on the ball, the swing plane should be a degree right. This is why all long drive champs seem to have severe inside-out swings when they hit a ball teed up reallyyyy high with their low lofted drivers.

Hope it helps!
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:44 pm

I am going to try it out now ... thanks guys!

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:46 pm

Derek wrote:
I am going to try it out now ... thanks guys!

Good luck bro..!
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:09 pm

andrew-golf wrote:
there is freedom of topics sharing...

im jus saying some golfers prefer to enjoy golf.. and not too technical.. and I'm one of em

for me i always half swing for long clubs and punch my iron shots..

so there is no right or wrong...

i always play low 90s to high 80s.. depending on how my putting works on certain days...

so at the end of the day, its about the short game and putting..

swing wise... i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate...

good for discussion tho..

but this thread is very theoretical for me...

just me ....

no pun intended

Hey Andrew ... there are lots of ppl like you who prefer keeping things really simple ... some of them are pros! Golf can be made to look easy ... or made extremelyyy complicated ... there really is no limit! At the end of the day its a matter of preference ...

"i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate"

And this is whats great about the ball flight laws and numbers measured by Trackman, Flightscope, etc ... they dont differentiate one swing style from another ... theres no bias! I gtee you .. put those same ppl with "weird weird" swings against a trackman , and the numbers will be great!

And for those who dont hit the ball long and straight ... there's hope ... they can keep practicing the wrong things and make the wrong adjustments , .... or they can try to learn from their ball flight and even hit against a launch monitor, .... or they can go to a good pro for lessons ; a pro who knows the ball flight laws, and who may also put them against a launch monitor!

On a great day, you will shoot high 80s ... but whats stopping you from shooting low 80s!? Just you ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:13 pm

for all the slicers with driver out there, me included.

Shoulder/feet aim slightly right of target, clubface aim at target. Tee a bit higher. Feel like sweeping the ball (to hit up).

Correct?
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:29 pm

Derek wrote:
I am going to try it out now ... thanks guys!

$^^&*^*$X#$##X$@ ! .... understanding and executing are 2 different issues, executing without understanding is doomed for failure ... will go think about it a bit more before I try again this evening ... of the 20 balls I hit, 2 went dead straight and landed at the pin, everything else missed left ... either straight left or draw left

The difference in the alignment is throwing me off completely, will need some time to work on this, 20 mins during lunch time is probably not the right way to approach things ...

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Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:48 pm

andrew-golf wrote:
there is freedom of topics sharing...

im jus saying some golfers prefer to enjoy golf.. and not too technical.. and I'm one of em

for me i always half swing for long clubs and punch my iron shots..

so there is no right or wrong...

i always play low 90s to high 80s.. depending on how my putting works on certain days...

so at the end of the day, its about the short game and putting..

swing wise... i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate...

good for discussion tho..

but this thread is very theoretical for me...

just me ....

no pun intended

Bro, I feel the same as you, damn, even our scores are sama sama, caused by the same weakness - putting!

My take is, while this thread is informative, there is no mention that it is easy to execute. That's down to our abilities. Talented folks may be able to execute, rest of us mortals probably need a coach

I find it hard to stomach if I am supposed to aim right ( when there are ob markers right) so as to draw my ball in.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:57 pm

I think its about what matters most for you in the game of golf. Some look for the perfect swing, some look for the lowering of score. What matters most is that you know which area you arr weak at at work at that area. I am sure a good swing and understanding will help but there are people who don't have such thoughts and yet play wonderful golf as they spend time on the areas they are weak at....

Nevertheless, let those who wants to know more about these flight laws understand better by going through this thread.......

Back to my line reading practise on my pc.... Smile
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andrew-golf
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:00 pm

agreed..

golf is a game of brotherhood and sisterhood...

having fun time with good golf and frustrating time with bad golf...

ending with good food and drinks... and companionship

im not too bothered about the swing...

for all the techies out there... this is ur thread....
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:19 pm

duffader wrote:
I think its about what matters most for you in the game of golf. Some look for the perfect swing, some look for the lowering of score. What matters most is that you know which area you arr weak at at work at that area. I am sure a good swing and understanding will help but there are people who don't have such thoughts and yet play wonderful golf as they spend time on the areas they are weak at....

Nevertheless, let those who wants to know more about these flight laws understand better by going through this thread.......

Back to my line reading practise on my pc.... Smile

Hey duffy ... agreed ... btw I'm working on the "perfect" swing today, so that I shoot lower scores tomorrow!
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:28 pm

Begbie wrote:
I have played a total of 3 games after applying the approach on the D-plane for my drives.

Game 1 (Sunday, 4th Dec, Marina Bay) with BabyCroc - Had one of my longest drives that day and averaging 225-235m with the longest assisted by wind at 256m. Unimaginable.

Game 2 (Tuesday, 06 Dec, Marina Bay) - Made best score of 93 I had from blue tee as I was hitting more fairways.

Game 3 (Wednesday, 07 Dec, Poresia)- After trying out two forgiving fairways with the set up, I decided to go to Poresia earlier, where I have played one bad game after another with best score at 111 in that damn course. Today I played 98 all thanks to my set up as all the loss ball , hazard penalties from the tee is almost non-existent.

In addition to all that, I had my driver shaft shortened to 44.5inch, spined and stiffened (added 7 CPM) by my clubfitter to suit my swing speed.

It may sound to good to be true, but the set-up works for me on my driver.

For those folks who's been struggling with ur drives, take your time to read it, understand it and try to apply it. Just take a few hours of your time applying it at the range... if it works for u, go for it, there is no harm.


Begbie,

Very heartening to hear you got such good results with it.

Shows your swing is stable and repeatable, and you understand the concept well.

Good job.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:29 pm

jhan18 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sIQ-7DJJbU Explanation on the D Plane. It's the most informative video out there.

Pro Jhan18, that video describes it so much better than I could in words alone.

Greatly useful. Thanks for sharing.

Peace.
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triplepar
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Newbie Golfer


Posts : 53
Join date : 2009-11-23

PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:36 pm

Wow, great thread. Never had a coach and never heard of ball flight laws till this thread. Have been doing what Ben Hogan does to get my balls to go straight except that I use my right foot as reference rather than my left. Now I get to understand why it works. Will try using left foot as reference. Perhaps, that will provide me with more consistency.
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TourSwing
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1004
Join date : 2011-03-05
Age : 37
Location : Dubai

PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:36 pm

Derek wrote:
Derek wrote:
I am going to try it out now ... thanks guys!

$^^&*^*$X#$##X$@ ! .... understanding and executing are 2 different issues, executing without understanding is doomed for failure ... will go think about it a bit more before I try again this evening ... of the 20 balls I hit, 2 went dead straight and landed at the pin, everything else missed left ... either straight left or draw left

The difference in the alignment is throwing me off completely, will need some time to work on this, 20 mins during lunch time is probably not the right way to approach things ...

Dont remember your natural ball flight .. but most of us definitely have muscle memory making making minor compensations to hit the ball straight with a horizontal swing plane square to the target. This is what you've been used to all this time. However, all of a sudden you move the swing plane left ... its only natural the ball will start going left! The question is how badly do you want a "truly straight" ball flight!? It may (or maybe not) get a bit worse before it gets better ... and requires some practice time .. good luck
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Today at 6:19 pm

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