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 Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:42 pm

Duval_S wrote:
errrrr.....abit shocking....I think I mite have unknowingly be doing this (setup as Ben) ..though I don have the expected results....yet

Ah, very cool. Your subconscious is aware even if you were not conscious of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:46 pm

TourSwing wrote:
duffader wrote:
I think its about what matters most for you in the game of golf. Some look for the perfect swing, some look for the lowering of score. What matters most is that you know which area you arr weak at at work at that area. I am sure a good swing and understanding will help but there are people who don't have such thoughts and yet play wonderful golf as they spend time on the areas they are weak at....

Nevertheless, let those who wants to know more about these flight laws understand better by going through this thread.......

Back to my line reading practise on my pc.... Smile

Hey duffy ... agreed ... btw I'm working on the "perfect" swing today, so that I shoot lower scores tomorrow!

I wish you luck in your search for that perfect swing... hope you get to practise on the course too.. having good numbers on simulators does not translate to good scores on the course.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:47 pm

solarpop wrote:

... To apply these ball flight laws, one must have attained quite a high level of ability in the game. The basis of this theory is that you're hitting down on iron shots, and hitting up on the driver. For the vast majority of golfers, they are picking their iron shots, and hitting down on the driver.

Whether one is hitting down or up with the driver, or hitting down or up (on a tee) with an iron, D plane applies.

In fact, when picking (I presume that means left wrist flipping) iron shots, D plane applies nonetheless. Just that in this case, the club face angle at impact is totally different from the club face angle at address, or where the player thinks the club face is facing.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:53 pm

This is interesting.

Begbie wrote:

... In fact I just tried to share this with my regular kaki who's been playing for more than 10 years about mid 80s and stagnated for past few years about the plane on the drive as his mishits are normally a hook.

This is what he said to me thru' whassap while deliberating his drive...

"Bro, I have read all golf instructions since 2002 and I know more swing laws then u know.. no need to teach me lah.. my ball will naturally hook lah if I become handsy, nothing to do with D-plane or aeroplane.."

Well, D plane applies in all impacts, whether he knows it or not. When he is handsy, overactive hands at impact, club face is closing rapidly. So at impact, club face is pointing way left, while club path may be straight or inside out. D plane clearly explains why that shot will hook.

Well.. if one dun wanna be taught, then one wont grow... if you haven't actually tried it out, why not try to apply it on ur own swing, get good results and improve yourself....let the rest of the golfers decide for themselves...Smile

I love this quote. "When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

Here's my quote, "When the mind is open, knowledge enters."

cheers cheers

Peace.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:55 pm

TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Here's Sean Foley talking about the changes Tiger had to make to hit the stinger again.

“Basically you have to be able to steepen the attack angle and when you do that the sweet spot, the path of the golf club is moving out to the right so typically when guys get steep they hook it,” said Foley as he walked with Woods during Wednesday’s pro-am at Sherwood Country Club.

“So if you noticed his practice swing there was a lot of swing and shift to the left. The more I’m hitting down the more I have to swing to the left.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/return-of-tigers-stinger/

Lee, thanks for posting this!!! Had been anxiously waiting for this Beer

Ha ha, you mean anxiously waiting for this thread in general, or this Tiger-Sean Foley post in particular? In any case, you're most welcome bro.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:57 pm

botak wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Wow, great responses and questions guys. Get me some time, I will get to the questions and reply in detail. Even responses for Andrew-golf and Botak are also useful to note, because it shows the full spectrum of how golfers think.

Boss,

You'll have to explain this to me when I see you in the future... I really tak faham...

No problem bro. It really helps at KRTU where the fairways are narrow w plenty of doglegs. Smile
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:58 pm

andrew-golf wrote:
there is freedom of topics sharing...

im jus saying some golfers prefer to enjoy golf.. and not too technical.. and I'm one of em

for me i always half swing for long clubs and punch my iron shots..

so there is no right or wrong...

i always play low 90s to high 80s.. depending on how my putting works on certain days...

so at the end of the day, its about the short game and putting..

swing wise... i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate...

good for discussion tho..

but this thread is very theoretical for me...

just me ....

no pun intended

No pun taken. Wink
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:01 pm

Bro Derek,

bro Tourswing gave a very good answer.

Let me know if you still have any questions.

Peace.

TourSwing wrote:
Derek wrote:
Thanks Justin for the video!

One thing to clarify, does it mean that it is easier to hit a straight shot with a short iron by not aligning your swing path to the target?

Lee, your comments appreciated as well.

Thanks!

Simple Logic: The only way to hit a "100% true" straight shot is for the club path and club face to be square to the target line at impact.

The Complication: The shorter the iron the greater the Angle of Attack, and therefore the greater the horizontal swing plane has to be shifted left, in order for the club path and club face to be square to the target line at impact (straight shot). As a an extremely general estimate, for every degree a player hits down on the ball, the h. swing plane should be a degree left! For the same reason, for the driver, for every degree a player hits up on the ball, the swing plane should be a degree right. This is why all long drive champs seem to have severe inside-out swings when they hit a ball teed up reallyyyy high with their low lofted drivers.

Hope it helps!
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:02 pm

Very positive spirit and excellent insight! Thanks bro.

TourSwing wrote:
andrew-golf wrote:
there is freedom of topics sharing...

im jus saying some golfers prefer to enjoy golf.. and not too technical.. and I'm one of em

for me i always half swing for long clubs and punch my iron shots..

so there is no right or wrong...

i always play low 90s to high 80s.. depending on how my putting works on certain days...

so at the end of the day, its about the short game and putting..

swing wise... i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate...

good for discussion tho..

but this thread is very theoretical for me...

just me ....

no pun intended

Hey Andrew ... there are lots of ppl like you who prefer keeping things really simple ... some of them are pros! Golf can be made to look easy ... or made extremelyyy complicated ... there really is no limit! At the end of the day its a matter of preference ...

"i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate"

And this is whats great about the ball flight laws and numbers measured by Trackman, Flightscope, etc ... they dont differentiate one swing style from another ... theres no bias! I gtee you .. put those same ppl with "weird weird" swings against a trackman , and the numbers will be great!

And for those who dont hit the ball long and straight ... there's hope ... they can keep practicing the wrong things and make the wrong adjustments , .... or they can try to learn from their ball flight and even hit against a launch monitor, .... or they can go to a good pro for lessons ; a pro who knows the ball flight laws, and who may also put them against a launch monitor!

On a great day, you will shoot high 80s ... but whats stopping you from shooting low 80s!? Just you ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:06 pm

pushslice wrote:
for all the slicers with driver out there, me included.

Shoulder/feet aim slightly right of target,

Yes.

clubface aim at target.

Yes, or even slightly right of target (but not as right at your shoulder/feet) if you want to draw.

Tee a bit higher. Feel like sweeping the ball (to hit up).

Yes.

Correct?

Yes.

From the ball flight, you can see the following:

1. ball pushes - club face needs to be a bit more closed
2. ball draws - perfect
3. ball slices - the swing path was outside in, not inside out. Angle the body and shoulder to point even more right.
4. ball goes straight - perfect

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:15 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Here's Sean Foley talking about the changes Tiger had to make to hit the stinger again.

“Basically you have to be able to steepen the attack angle and when you do that the sweet spot, the path of the golf club is moving out to the right so typically when guys get steep they hook it,” said Foley as he walked with Woods during Wednesday’s pro-am at Sherwood Country Club.

“So if you noticed his practice swing there was a lot of swing and shift to the left. The more I’m hitting down the more I have to swing to the left.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/return-of-tigers-stinger/

Lee, thanks for posting this!!! Had been anxiously waiting for this Beer

Ha ha, you mean anxiously waiting for this thread in general, or this Tiger-Sean Foley post in particular? In any case, you're most welcome bro.

Stinger!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:20 pm

Derek wrote:
Derek wrote:
I am going to try it out now ... thanks guys!

$^^&*^*$X#$##X$@ ! .... understanding and executing are 2 different issues, executing without understanding is doomed for failure ... will go think about it a bit more before I try again this evening ... of the 20 balls I hit, 2 went dead straight and landed at the pin, everything else missed left ... either straight left or draw left

The difference in the alignment is throwing me off completely, will need some time to work on this, 20 mins during lunch time is probably not the right way to approach things ...

Sounds like iron, since you were hitting at the pin.

Straight left - pull - club path outside in, club face square to path, pointing left of target.

Draw left - hook - club path outside in same as above, club face slightly closed to path, pointing left of target.

When you use D plane to read the ball flight, it tells you what happened at impact - both your club path and club face. Very useful in adjusting the swing to get the flight you want.

With more practice, you will get really good at reading your ball flight, and adjusting accordingly. Your understanding of your own swing and what is happening at impact will also improve.

Bear in mind even tiny changes affect the club face and swing path, so make changes incrementally and gradually. Ensure all other elements are as the same in the set up and the swing, changing only body alignment and club face angle at set up.

Impact fix will also help to show where the club face is actually pointing at impact, which may be quite different from address.

Hope that helps.

Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:24 pm

pocketace wrote:
andrew-golf wrote:
there is freedom of topics sharing...

im jus saying some golfers prefer to enjoy golf.. and not too technical.. and I'm one of em

for me i always half swing for long clubs and punch my iron shots..

so there is no right or wrong...

i always play low 90s to high 80s.. depending on how my putting works on certain days...

so at the end of the day, its about the short game and putting..

swing wise... i seen some ppl with weird weird swings and yet they bomb the ball damn far and accurate...

good for discussion tho..

but this thread is very theoretical for me...

just me ....

no pun intended

Bro, I feel the same as you, damn, even our scores are sama sama, caused by the same weakness - putting!

My take is, while this thread is informative, there is no mention that it is easy to execute. That's down to our abilities. Talented folks may be able to execute, rest of us mortals probably need a coach

I find it hard to stomach if I am supposed to aim right ( when there are ob markers right) so as to draw my ball in.

I AGREE!!!

It's really freaky at first. Subconsciously, the mind will resist.

But here's the thing. For driver, to fade, the adjustment is really tiny.

To draw the driver, the adjustment is huge. And the fact that my driver sits open faced compounded the situation. For those with square faced drivers, it should be less dramatic.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:24 pm

Thank you Lee.

I'd be afraid to aim the face right to avoid my dreaded pushslice (ie at impact club becomes even more open than my already out to in path).

but how to make face at impact = setup?

This is where the rubber hits the tarmac Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:39 pm

TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Here's Sean Foley talking about the changes Tiger had to make to hit the stinger again.

“Basically you have to be able to steepen the attack angle and when you do that the sweet spot, the path of the golf club is moving out to the right so typically when guys get steep they hook it,” said Foley as he walked with Woods during Wednesday’s pro-am at Sherwood Country Club.

“So if you noticed his practice swing there was a lot of swing and shift to the left. The more I’m hitting down the more I have to swing to the left.

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golftalkcentral/return-of-tigers-stinger/

Lee, thanks for posting this!!! Had been anxiously waiting for this Beer

Ha ha, you mean anxiously waiting for this thread in general, or this Tiger-Sean Foley post in particular? In any case, you're most welcome bro.

Stinger!!!

Ah, now I understand. I too would like to master this fantastic shot. Great for avoiding wind, trees and hazards. cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:08 pm

triplepar wrote:
Wow, great thread. Never had a coach and never heard of ball flight laws till this thread. Have been doing what Ben Hogan does to get my balls to go straight except that I use my right foot as reference rather than my left. Now I get to understand why it works. Will try using left foot as reference. Perhaps, that will provide me with more consistency.

Thanks, triplepar.

The value of knowledge compounds when shared and discussed. I am just pleased as punch to receive PMs from people who learnt something and benefited from it.

Cheers,
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:33 pm

pushslice wrote:
Thank you Lee.

I'd be afraid to aim the face right to avoid my dreaded pushslice (ie at impact club becomes even more open than my already out to in path).

but how to make face at impact = setup?

This is where the rubber hits the tarmac Razz

Push slice - ball starts right of target, and bends further right. Old ball flight law, initial direction follows swing path. Club face is where the ball will land. So, align body to point more left. Club face still unchanged, since where we want the ball to land is unchanged. Result? Even more outside in, and ball will slice even more.

This is how old ball flight laws have confused many, compounding rather than solving swing problems. If you tried to fix using old ball flight laws, one can understand why you chose this nickname.

New Ball Flight Laws

If your swing path is consistent, no problem, just rotate your body clockwise until your outside in path becomes straight or even inside out as required.

The face at impact can be determined by doing impact fix.

Impact Fix

1. Setup as normal, note the club face angle.
2. Make several practice swings to get the sense of rhythm and sequence, and after that, set up again
3. Simulate an actual swing at the ball in slow motion, do everything that you would do in an actual full speed swing, and stop just before the ball
4. Freeze your 'impact' position and note the club face now

That gives one a pretty good idea of what the club face will actually be at impact.

5. While still in the frozen impact position, without moving your hands, use your fingers to rotate the club face until you get the club face angle you want.
6. Lock your grip on the new club face angle (not too firm, just enough to maintain the orientation of the club in your hands.)
7. Bring the body and hands back to setup position
8. Look at the club face angle now.

We might be surprised to note, club face angle at no. 8 typically might look quite different from no. 1.

This procedure will help us get the club face angle we want at impact. Not 100%, but close.

9. Take a full swing.

Whenever my shots start to stray, esp in the initial ball direction, the first thing I do is an impact fix to check my face angle.

Next, read the ball flight, noting two things. (a) Where the ball started initially. And (b) where the ball curved after that.

That tells us (a) where the club face was pointing at impact, and (b) what is the swing path in relation to the club face.

Adjust (a) or (b) or a mixture of both as needed until you get the shape that you want, hitting the target you pick.

Hope that helps.

Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:33 pm

Some excerpts from about hitting down

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

A golfer may think that it becomes very complicated to calculate the specific amount that he must "aim/swing left" for each particular iron, because each iron will travel on a variably steep VSP through the impact zone. To make it easier to make that calculation, a golfer can adopt two different approaches.

Approach number 1 is suitable for a golfer who prefers to hit down on the ball with the same clubhead attack angle for all of his irons (eg. 5 degrees downward clubhead attack angle). .... To make the "aim/swing left" calculation consistent between irons, he could move the ball progressively back from low point towards the middle of his stance for shorter irons. The further back the ball is positioned, the steeper the clubhead attack angle and the more inside-out the clubhead path - because the ball is positioned further up-plane relative to the low point of the clubhead arc. That approach will allow the golfer to "aim/swing left" roughly the same amount for all of his irons.

Approach number 2 is more suitable for golfers who prefer to place their ball at the same ball location for all their irons shots eg. 2-3" behind low point. Then, they need to vary the clubhead attack angle to equalise the amount they need to "aim/swing left" for all their irons - using a steep clubhead attack angle (eg. 5 degrees) for short irons, a less steep clubhead attack angle (eg. 2-4 degrees) for mid-irons and a shallower clubhead attack angle (eg. 1-2 degrees) for long irons.

A golfer does not have to become fanatically fastidious about refining this "aim/swing left" approach - unless he can consistently hit the ball on the sweetspot (within <1 dimple of the center of the clubface). As I will demonstrate in a following section on off-center hits - if you are plagued by off-center hits, then you can either ignore this "aim/swing left" approach or you can apply it in a more loose/general way.

....

I think it is important to note that new ball flight laws are generally for sweet spot hit. off center hits will create another type of spin which could be what we experience most as high handicappers...
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:45 pm

sandkie wrote:
Some excerpts from about hitting down

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/ballflight.htm

A golfer may think that it becomes very complicated to calculate the specific amount that he must "aim/swing left" for each particular iron, because each iron will travel on a variably steep VSP through the impact zone. To make it easier to make that calculation, a golfer can adopt two different approaches.

Approach number 1 is suitable for a golfer who prefers to hit down on the ball with the same clubhead attack angle for all of his irons (eg. 5 degrees downward clubhead attack angle). .... To make the "aim/swing left" calculation consistent between irons, he could move the ball progressively back from low point towards the middle of his stance for shorter irons. The further back the ball is positioned, the steeper the clubhead attack angle and the more inside-out the clubhead path - because the ball is positioned further up-plane relative to the low point of the clubhead arc. That approach will allow the golfer to "aim/swing left" roughly the same amount for all of his irons.

Approach number 2 is more suitable for golfers who prefer to place their ball at the same ball location for all their irons shots eg. 2-3" behind low point. Then, they need to vary the clubhead attack angle to equalise the amount they need to "aim/swing left" for all their irons - using a steep clubhead attack angle (eg. 5 degrees) for short irons, a less steep clubhead attack angle (eg. 2-4 degrees) for mid-irons and a shallower clubhead attack angle (eg. 1-2 degrees) for long irons.

A golfer does not have to become fanatically fastidious about refining this "aim/swing left" approach - unless he can consistently hit the ball on the sweetspot (within <1 dimple of the center of the clubface). As I will demonstrate in a following section on off-center hits - if you are plagued by off-center hits, then you can either ignore this "aim/swing left" approach or you can apply it in a more loose/general way.

....


Thanks for sharing that Sandkie. It is a useful site.

sandkie wrote:

I think it is important to note that new ball flight laws are generally for sweet spot hit. off center hits will create another type of spin which could be what we experience most as high handicappers...

Well, interesting thought, but on deeper reflection, not accurate.

Again, I repeat, the new ball flight laws are laws. It applies no matter where on the club face you hit the ball. We are subject to the same laws of physics regardless of handicap.

In response to the ball flight laws, and the geometry of the swing arc, the placement of the ball, the opening or closing of stance, etc are all measures to manage the swing path to achieve a consistent swing path and shot shape across different lengths club. The more consistent the impact, the more effective these measures are.

The two above are related, but separate. One is a law, the other is a management technique.

Ball flight laws (new) and D plane apply regardless of sweet spot hit, off center hits, low handicap, high handicap, etc.

There is only one type of spin. What differs and causes the ball to stay straight or curve left or curve right is the axis of the spin. The axis of the spin, once set at impact, is fixed and remains unchanged for the duration of the flight. Once the ball is in the air, it is spinning freely (of course subject to air, moisture, wind, etc.) and the axis, whether straight, or tilted, will determine whether or not the ball curves and where it curves to. Think of a plane, with the wings tilted one way or another or level.

Of course, if we dig a whole layer of dirt between the ball and club face at impact, thereby distorting the effect of the club face angle, that will distort the result somewhat. Incidentally, a mud ball will also be distorted, as we all know. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:24 pm

To be accurate, this is the relationship between spin causes by new laws and off center hits, according to the article.


Two factors can tilt the spin axis - i) a divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact; and ii) an off-center hit.

As a rough approximation, a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead path (at impact) will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 2 degrees (for an iron) and 4 degrees (for a driver). The reason for this difference is that a driver has a lower dynamic loft than an iron (eg. driver has ~50% of a 6-iron's loft). The lower the loft of the club, the narrower the size of the D-plane wedge, and the more the D-plane will be tilted sideways for a certain finite size of the divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead at impact.

An off-center hit also produces a tilt of the spin axis by imparting side-spin to the ball via the gear-effect.

According to Fred Tuxen of the Trackman company, an off-center hit of 1 dimple (0.14") will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 6 degrees in a driver and 2 degrees in a 6-iron. That's a surprispingly large effect - equivalent to a 1.5 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a driver, and a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a 6-iron.

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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:17 am

sandkie wrote:
To be accurate, this is the relationship between spin causes by new laws and off center hits, according to the article.


Two factors can tilt the spin axis - i) a divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact; and ii) an off-center hit.

As a rough approximation, a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead path (at impact) will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 2 degrees (for an iron) and 4 degrees (for a driver). The reason for this difference is that a driver has a lower dynamic loft than an iron (eg. driver has ~50% of a 6-iron's loft). The lower the loft of the club, the narrower the size of the D-plane wedge, and the more the D-plane will be tilted sideways for a certain finite size of the divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead at impact.

An off-center hit also produces a tilt of the spin axis by imparting side-spin to the ball via the gear-effect.

According to Fred Tuxen of the Trackman company, an off-center hit of 1 dimple (0.14") will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 6 degrees in a driver and 2 degrees in a 6-iron. That's a surprispingly large effect - equivalent to a 1.5 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a driver, and a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a 6-iron.


Sandkie, my bad. Got tripped up by the gear effect, forgot I read that somewhere.

That was not in the D-plane formula. Glad you pointed it out. I learnt something again.

The D plane in Jorgensen's book covers the ball sliding up the club face, but nothing was mentioned about gear effect. It appears it took Trackman technology to reveal that.

I do recall that when I hit the driver a bit off the toe, the shot becomes a draw. The off center hit forces the club face a bit open at impact. Then the gear effect gives a tilt to the ball, so that even though the ball departs from a slightly open club face and goes to the right of target, gear effect brought the ball back in a draw.

With this gear effect, even though the club path may be straight at contact, the tilt to the spin axis is as though it was hit by an in to out club path. Interesting...

Haven't had any noticeable gear effect with the irons though. Maybe it is too small to be noticeable.

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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:46 am

Reading the book again, there is a section entitled "The Ball Slides and Rolls on the Clubface."

... When the clubhead begins to make contact with the ball, the ball will begin sliding up the clubface, with the force between the ball and the clubface gradually increasing. The resulting frictional force on the ball will gradually give the ball a rolling motion, and when the ball is about to leave the clubface, the ball will be rolling without sliding if there has been enough friction.

Under another section entitled "Collision Theory", it states:
When the ball is hit out of deep rough and a layer of grass lubricates the contact between the clubface and the ball, there may not be enough friction to give the ball the usual amount of spin. Under this condition, the ball may leave the clubface along a line closer to the normal than usual.

Which explains why I had so much trouble hitting out of the rough before I started hitting fades. The ball would not fly out from the rough if:
1. I hit my normal shot, or I try to draw
2. I use a low lofted club like my Adams 18 deg hybrid (used to wonder why this hybrid cannot hit out of rough which I thought it was designed to do)

But it would fly out nicely if:
1. I hit a cut fade or a 3/4 punch shot
2. I use a higher lofter club

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sandkie
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:27 am

Lee36328 wrote:
sandkie wrote:
To be accurate, this is the relationship between spin causes by new laws and off center hits, according to the article.


Two factors can tilt the spin axis - i) a divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact; and ii) an off-center hit.

As a rough approximation, a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead path (at impact) will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 2 degrees (for an iron) and 4 degrees (for a driver). The reason for this difference is that a driver has a lower dynamic loft than an iron (eg. driver has ~50% of a 6-iron's loft). The lower the loft of the club, the narrower the size of the D-plane wedge, and the more the D-plane will be tilted sideways for a certain finite size of the divergent angle between the clubface orientation and the clubhead at impact.

An off-center hit also produces a tilt of the spin axis by imparting side-spin to the ball via the gear-effect.

According to Fred Tuxen of the Trackman company, an off-center hit of 1 dimple (0.14") will produce a tilt of the spin axis of 6 degrees in a driver and 2 degrees in a 6-iron. That's a surprispingly large effect - equivalent to a 1.5 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a driver, and a 1 degree divergent angle between the clubface orientation and clubhead path at impact in a 6-iron.


Sandkie, my bad. Got tripped up by the gear effect, forgot I read that somewhere.

That was not in the D-plane formula. Glad you pointed it out. I learnt something again.

The D plane in Jorgensen's book covers the ball sliding up the club face, but nothing was mentioned about gear effect. It appears it took Trackman technology to reveal that.

I do recall that when I hit the driver a bit off the toe, the shot becomes a draw. The off center hit forces the club face a bit open at impact. Then the gear effect gives a tilt to the ball, so that even though the ball departs from a slightly open club face and goes to the right of target, gear effect brought the ball back in a draw.

With this gear effect, even though the club path may be straight at contact, the tilt to the spin axis is as though it was hit by an in to out club path. Interesting...

Haven't had any noticeable gear effect with the irons though. Maybe it is too small to be noticeable.


I think it is important to note the gear efffect. Many will find new laws irrelevant because their ball flight is actually more affected by off hit. Due that they dismissed the new laws conpletely. Fortunately most of us know the feeling of sweet spot hit.

The article did mention that 6 iron has only half effect compared to driver that is why it may not be so noticeable.

Glad u learn something, that is the point of discussion. You were the one who opened the gate for the new law for me. Too bad I only go range one in a month, no time to expetiment. Plus off center hit is still more domunant now for me.
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Yeoyc
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:36 pm

Great thread bros.
I also like to understand the whats and hows of the ball flight. I have been aware of these new laws for a while but it was difficult to execute them effortlessly. I couldn't seem to get the path and clubface to do what I wanted.
After taking some lessons I became aware that because of my swing pattern, it was not possible for me to get these path and club face correct.
After some help with my swing I know can appreciate the new laws and use them to help me correct my ball flight when it goes haywire. Still working hard on it but it is now easier and more consistent
It became very evident to me that what our set up and body movements do in the swing has the greatest influence on the path and clubface.
I was doing a reverse pivot before and that is why I was out to in. I had to change my set up swing to make it easier to come more inside the ball.
As a result I have been getting less OB and hazards and have gained distance. My scores are coming down because of this.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Using new ball flight laws (D Plane) on the course - Sharing a discussion   Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:05 pm

Yeoyc wrote:
Great thread bros.
I also like to understand the whats and hows of the ball flight. I have been aware of these new laws for a while but it was difficult to execute them effortlessly. I couldn't seem to get the path and clubface to do what I wanted.
After taking some lessons I became aware that because of my swing pattern, it was not possible for me to get these path and club face correct.
After some help with my swing I know can appreciate the new laws and use them to help me correct my ball flight when it goes haywire. Still working hard on it but it is now easier and more consistent
It became very evident to me that what our set up and body movements do in the swing has the greatest influence on the path and clubface.
I was doing a reverse pivot before and that is why I was out to in. I had to change my set up swing to make it easier to come more inside the ball.
As a result I have been getting less OB and hazards and have gained distance. My scores are coming down because of this.

A positive and encouraging story, thank you for sharing. This sentence stood out for me.

"After some help with my swing I know can appreciate the new laws and use them to help me correct my ball flight when it goes haywire."

That's exactly it.

Once you are in control of your pivot, you can pretty much get any swing path you want, out to in, straight, or in to out.

And understanding ball flight, you can pretty much get any shape you want with it.

You can also play with spin, whether you want it to run after landing (draw) or stop on a dime (high cut fade).

It gives one a tremendous sense of being in control.
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