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 Pitching - the duffed shot

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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:41 pm

I took this footage from the Hyundai Championship in Hawaii last week. It shows Webb Simpson hitting a pitch that comes up short because he hit's the ball Fat or duffs it. You can really see the deceleration on the club (22 secs in) as it gets stuck in the ground at impact.



It reminded me of a magazine article i recently wrote about the exact same subject.

Here is the draft copy of the article.






I was also taught to chip/pitch the traditional way and it wasn't until I changed my ideas that I became a better chipper/pitcher of the ball. Don't take for granted that everything you are taught or read is the most effective way. It does work but maybe there is a better way

If any of you suffer from the duffed shot, this article may help. Of course things such as the lie and slope need to be considered

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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:53 pm

Thanks Paul. I been wrong all this while
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:57 pm

Duval_S wrote:
Thanks Paul. I been wrong all this while

Wrong or not, your short game is vicious! You are lethal from 50m in.

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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:50 pm

Question : For chipping, which should be the leading arm? Should we pull with the left arm and have the right arm just guiding along.. or do we push with the right arm and the left arm just guiding along?
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:22 pm

Cyrano wrote:
Question : For chipping, which should be the leading arm? Should we pull with the left arm and have the right arm just guiding along.. or do we push with the right arm and the left arm just guiding along?

I personally would not think about right or left arm as i see it more as both arms working together, its not something you should be thinking about.


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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:34 pm

ahhh.. so both arms work as one unit.. and the club is an extension of the arm..
ok.. shall try that..
thanx man..
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:51 pm

In regards to arms, never try to keep them straight as I see so many try to do.

In the backswing the right arm should fold and in the follow through the left arm should fold, just as it would in your full swing.


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timang84
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:07 pm

I always thought of it as a shoulder turn
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:17 pm

timang84 wrote:
I always thought of it as a shoulder turn

The shoulders will get pulled into a small turn by the movement of the arms, not the other way around. The arms start the downswing first and the shoulders will again get pulled around.

There are different teaching styles, this is just my preference after trying and teaching all of them over the years and observing the good vs bad chippers



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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:08 am

Thank you Paul. I also fear the duff shot Very Happy

I read Luke Donald's tips on short game, they are similar to yours.

Is there a safeguard against topping or skulling the pitch with center ball position?

- flat wrist?
- body release? (not flip wrist)
- weight on left?
- keep the reverse k?
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:58 am

Here is Ben Crane talking about the same thing. He explains how the bounce works on your wedge and why you should not keep your hands so far in front of the ball at impact

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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:54 pm

pushslice wrote:
Thank you Paul. I also fear the duff shot Very Happy

I read Luke Donald's tips on short game, they are similar to yours.

Is there a safeguard against topping or skulling the pitch with center ball position?

- flat wrist?
- body release? (not flip wrist)
- weight on left?
- keep the reverse k?

Hi pushslice
I believe the centre ball position is what will safequard against the skulled and duffed shot. Ball too far back means no loft and steep angle of attack which means low ball. Golfers are scared to dig the club into the ground and want to hit the ball higher so the natural reaction is to scoop up with the wrists and lean back with the body causing the skull.
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:01 pm


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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:02 pm

Good article, thank you. keep the aussie swing going. cheers mate.
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:06 pm

My personal believe is that for chipping chipping and pitching

1. Your left wrist has to be flat
2. Your hands MUST MUST always be in front of the club.
3. Do not decelerate at impact.

Also, heres one more which i am trying to fix.

4. spine angle must alwys be constant when rotating shoulders.

I have this prob of having my spine angle changed at my down swing, due to me not rotating along my spine as the pivot.

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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:11 pm

eiji wrote:

Great video
The only difference or problem I see here in SG is the courses are a lot softer which may reduce the effectiveness of the bounce. But I like his explanation and demonstration.

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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:16 pm

nientsu wrote:
My personal believe is that for chipping chipping and pitching

1. Your left wrist has to be flat
2. Your hands MUST MUST always be in front of the club.
3. Do not decelerate at impact.

Also, heres one more which i am trying to fix.

4. spine angle must alwys be constant when rotating shoulders.

I have this prob of having my spine angle changed at my down swing, due to me not rotating along my spine as the pivot.


And how effective is your chipping?
I believe the spine angle problem you have is because you are trying to keep your hands in front of the ball, not letting the club pass and go around your body.(refer Pic 4 in my article) Keeping your hands in front of the club will also cause you to decelerate. Guess you fell for the traditional teaching idea Beer
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:21 pm

Thanks Paul

Have not read ur article yet. Will read it once I am at home and no colleagues is looking at my computer.
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:21 pm

nientsu wrote:

I have this prob of having my spine angle changed at my down swing, due to me not rotating along my spine as the pivot.


Thats because it is biomechanically impossible to rotate around your spine yet still have your hands in front of the club
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:15 pm

another question.. does this apply to short chips or it applies even to long chips?
I mean.. if we use lofted clubs for 70-90m shots to green, do we still get our hand before the ball (i.e rely on the bounce) or hand after the ball (i.e. rely on compression)?
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:28 pm

great video
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:45 pm

Great info! I have lots of trouble with my chipping at the course. One thing i noticed is that when at the range, the method of 'hand in-front of club' works very well. However at the course, i came up with the duffed shots on most times.....very frustrating.


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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:55 pm

I actually used a technique like what is shown in the video ... simply because I was chunking too many easy pitches, especially under pressure.

Then I made the mistake of listening to a couple of guys who were better golfers than me who said that my technique was fundamentally not sound and that I had to strike down and get more spin on the ball.

End result, now completely confused with a pathetic short game. Up and down about 1-2 times a round as compared to 5-6.

Sometimes, it is difficult to trust that what we are doing is correct (from a personal point of view).

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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:41 pm

Paul,

I use a similar technique of sliding using the bounce of the club most of the time. (aka stan utley method). However, for bad lie (e.g. ball in a divot, downhill) or when I need the ball to run more, I use the hands forward, ball back method.

Am I on the right track using multiple techniques? Can u comment on when to use which method?
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PostSubject: Re: Pitching - the duffed shot   Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:03 pm

bkll wrote:
Paul,

I use a similar technique of sliding using the bounce of the club most of the time. (aka stan utley method). However, for bad lie (e.g. ball in a divot, downhill) or when I need the ball to run more, I use the hands forward, ball back method.

Am I on the right track using multiple techniques? Can u comment on when to use which method?

You certainly are on the right track bkll. You need to have as many variations as you can with short game for different types of lies, slopes and conditions. The technique I described in the article is my basic pitch technique assuming a fairly decent lie and reasonably flat ground. Use this as your basis to then make minor adjustments for different situations you will encounter on the course.
As you mentioned, if you are in a divot, sandy lie or muddy lie, then the ball further back , hands slightly more forward would be called for. Just need to recognise that this will cause a lower ball flight and more of a digging action. There are also slopes to consider which I will do a thread about when time permits.

I see most poor chipping comes from the hands to forward even on a good, flat lie. These same golfers do the same into their longer pitching and even bunker shots with disastrous results.
Even more disastrous is when you try to apply it to your full swing. That's a discussion for another thread but basically trying to hit down with your hands in front is the wrong way of describing what actually happens. It is best described as the shaft coming "around" not "down". I will try to put together a video to explain it better...too difficult for me to put in words
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