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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:50 pm

shorthitter wrote:
tronos wrote:
mUAr_cHEe wrote:
Laguna have.

Laguna cannot affored leh.......Derek, MBGC got getting caddies? FT or Local also can....I need advise on NOT to try carry the bunkers with my short driver but somehow i dont take my flight mates advise. Maybe if a XMM caddy whisper to me nicely i will tee off with my wood. Play at JB, when caddies say "wahhh sooo long" or "u hit/swing very nice" i cannot tahan.

sorry off topic a bit from this serious discussion.


PS please female caddies only....dont need a male caddy to tell me "bro, u squeeze ur butt to tightly when u swing...here let me show you ('Shocked')

Why Laguna cannot afford? We have some of the most attractive caddies in the world.

But I probebly should not comment on this thread as FT myself.

maybe if you can help post a group photo of the caddies, Laguna business will jump darmatically.. Very Happy. Nothing sinister, i am sure there is a promotional photo for public viewing somewhere......Maybe then i would not have turned down playing at Laguna a few months ago...


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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:10 pm

Our business is doing extremely well without pics thanks anyway.. Beer
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bkll
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:16 pm

Quote :
After all... the jobs that the FTs are doing now are just jobs that most Singaporeans do not want to do...

The way I see the issue, there are 3 types of jobs:
A) bad paying jobs that Singaporeans don't want (e.g. cleaning toilets)
B) good paying jobs that Singaporeans cannot perform (e.g. playing pro-level golf)
C) good paying jobs that Singaporeans can perform ( e.g. sit on your ass and create powerpoint slides)

Most people I know do not have an issue with FTs taking up A and B jobs. Grumbling is on C jobs being taken by FT because policies make convenient to do so. But when you see one entire department filled with FTs where the jobs are not particularly difficult, you start to wonder whether the FT manager just want to bring in their own countrymen.
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:20 pm

"sit on your ass and create powerpoint slides" doing it right now LOL..u forgot surfing internet and posting in forums.....only somebody is depriving me of XMM photos so now more agitated...LOL
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:25 pm

bkll wrote:
Quote :
After all... the jobs that the FTs are doing now are just jobs that most Singaporeans do not want to do...

The way I see the issue, there are 3 types of jobs:
A) bad paying jobs that Singaporeans don't want (e.g. cleaning toilets)
B) good paying jobs that Singaporeans cannot perform (e.g. playing pro-level golf)
C) good paying jobs that Singaporeans can perform ( e.g. sit on your ass and create powerpoint slides)

Most people I know do not have an issue with FTs taking up A and B jobs. Grumbling is on C jobs being taken by FT because policies make convenient to do so. But when you see one entire department filled with FTs where the jobs are not particularly difficult, you start to wonder whether the FT manager just want to bring in their own countrymen.

I actually agree whole heartedly with that statement.

However if I can offer alternate perspective, here (and this is generalization) people are trained to perform not think, so if something out of the norm happens there is mass confusion until a manager comes in and sorts out issue.... Production can grind to a halt.

If I ask 2 people one local and one FT the same question and the FT answers better who would u hire? Remember that it is your business at stake...
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MrBig
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:26 pm

pushslice wrote:

If Building operators/SMRT/SBS/Food stall owners, etc etc are finding it hard to find local workers to perform the jobs at the current pay level (which is acceptable to foreign workers), then

are Sporeans already doing other higher paying jobs? or

are they choosing to be unemployed rather than clean tables/drive bus/be a tse-char cook/etc/etc at current pay?

Agree on the point of Work Permits...
But a recent post indicated that local elderly folks seem to be the one's cleaning tables at foodcourts.

On a separate note:
What I find very interesting is the S-pass situation...
Apparently foreigners have to command a pay of $2000 or more to apply for an S-pass.

So....
if a call centre employs a polytechnic graduate for the post of ... say customer service agent... his pay would likely be in the range of $1300-$1650.
However, S-pass foreigners would have to be paid $2000 or above.
Imagine if the Poly graduate were to be offered $2000... he would be jumping for joy !

So... I think companies should offer Singaporeans a similar base salary to locals, rather than take advantage of the fact that there is no minimum wage.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:26 pm

tronos wrote:
"sit on your ass and create powerpoint slides" doing it right now LOL..u forgot surfing internet and posting in forums.....only somebody is depriving me of XMM photos so now more agitated...LOL

Check out my Facebook haha I was photographed with caddy I am still
Explaining to wife!
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:42 pm

bkll... your point is very interesting. i did not see it that way before.

anyway, why i thought of this because my good buddies' newly wed wife is a Chinese FT and he is just going through a tough time now getting PR status for her. I guess also because of the situation that he is in right now, he is a bit more sensitive to the PRC bashing issues going on.

Anyway, I think he brought up a valid point that since Singaporean are crying father and mother about sub-standard service because of the new imported PRC work-force. They should ask themselves whether if they are willing to pay more in the first place to have the local work force them. Again it is a vicious cycle / circle of life...

1. you want quality local service.
2. you must pay more for supposingly higher quality local service.
3. when paying more, you also increase your cost more.
4. then now you have to hope that your boss is willing to pay more for your better quality local service if not you have to start finding a new job when he manages to find an alternative that is of lower cost to him.

Now a question; Local Singaporean Service, is it really better quality? I have seen my fair share of disgruntled locals who provide really sub-standard service as well.


Go figure.
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nutty88
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:01 pm

IMHO, service is quite lacking here as compared to other countries regardless of whether it is served by Foreign Workers or locals. Thus, I don't think there is a need to raise the cost for consumers either way. The question lies in the operating costs for companies, i.e. which is cheaper to hire.

Having said that, I somehow have the perception that FW are in general more hardworking with a better attitude although language can be an issue which created a lack in service level. Case in point, I visited a well-known European sports retailer and the service personnel is from PRC who can't speak a word of English. DUH!!! How are they going to serve locals and tourists who don't speak mandarin at all?

Honestly, I don't have much issues with having FW in the country as Singaporeans do not want to get their hands dirty. I do have a big issues with the so-called FT in MNC. Imagine a HR Director, Finance Director, etc.. who are FT? I can understand if it is a new industry like life sciences, bio, etc.. who requires such FT for knowledge transfer but such back-end operations can actually be filled by locals.
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bogeyman72
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:25 pm

I do not think it is fair to say sub-standard service levels is due to the new imported PRC work-force.

Personally, amongst the service staff I've encountered at foodcourts, restaurants, hawker centres, coffee shop, hotels, in Singapore those who left a good impression on my are the PRCs, Pinoys, etc... never a local service staff....

FTs tend to have a hunger to want to do well... Sorry about my next statement but... local Singaporeans are too well pampered, protected by our Government and always complaining about unlevel playing field, unfair this, unfair that...

We tend to want to blame others when it is our own incompetence (& self-indulgence) that is hampering our performance.... like dat how to compete against the world out there?

Dun bash me hah, I only giving my 2 cents worth of opinion....




mUAr_cHEe wrote:


........Anyway, I think he brought up a valid point that since Singaporean are crying father and mother about sub-standard service because of the new imported PRC work-force. They should ask themselves whether if they are willing to pay more in the first place to have the local work force them. Again it is a vicious cycle / circle of life...

................Local Singaporean Service, is it really better quality? I have seen my fair share of disgruntled locals who provide really sub-standard service as well.


Go figure.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:37 pm

I like to agree with what Bogeyman's comment. Singaporean needs to work hard and tell PRC or foreigners that we are no push overs. Be the best and out do others. That the only way to survive in a dog eat dog world. Dont take things for granted and expect to be spoon fed....
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bogeyman72
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:43 pm

Ditto.... we are not as hardworking as we used to be... our lives got better, we become lazier.... we want to be more senang demanding that our lives will get even better with less work...

Less work => much better life = higher productivity?
Khorkar wrote:
I like to agree with what Bogeyman's comment. Singaporean needs to work hard and tell PRC or foreigners that we are no push overs. Be the best and out do others. That the only way to survive in a dog eat dog world. Dont take things for granted and expect to be spoon fed....
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buzz1211
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:59 pm

Paiseh ah but feel the urge to jump in:

Cost of living vs rising expectation
- Even a fresh grad expects to buy a beemer
- A newly married couple expects a 5-room, if not exec condo
- Chicken rice at $2 (low cost) but while we earn $10,000 (high wages)
- Low cost utilities but import gas to power our generators
- First world wages (cos we compare with London, NY etc) but third world costs (we compare with neighbour)

Then contextualise that against low waged workers (largely FT) but high expectations (good service). Conclusion: Cheap and Good no longer exists. It's like buying a rip-off club at dirt cheap price and expecting the performance of a Titleist. It's like insisting on buying a Titleist on hire purchase then complaining too expensive.

Much of the western world now experiencing the pain of high expectations. Government survives on credit which leads to budget deficit and now the pain of being plain old broke. Japan experiencing pain of low immigrant numbers and 20 years of deflation.

I don't know. I have a problem when my friends sit with me and grumble about how expensive life here is while sipping $6 latte and jiggling their Panerais because they may need to floor the pedal of their BMW (top selling car here) to get to their fully air-conditioned million dollar condo.
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peace2903
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:28 am

bogeyman72 wrote:
Ditto.... we are not as hardworking as we used to be... our lives got better, we become lazier.... we want to be more senang demanding that our lives will get even better with less work...

Less work => much better life = higher productivity?
Khorkar wrote:
I like to agree with what Bogeyman's comment. Singaporean needs to work hard and tell PRC or foreigners that we are no push overs. Be the best and out do others. That the only way to survive in a dog eat dog world. Dont take things for granted and expect to be spoon fed....

I have some disagreement on this point.
When a FT comes to Singapore to work, they are usually without the family. They do not have to factor in Work-Life balance, they can come to office earlier and go off later, works overtime, works on weekends, works at home. I have many FT colleagues and I can see their outputs being higher, and once those FTs bring in the family... it is a different case. Singaporeans are been working harder, that is why the birth rate is dropping, Singaporean are generally 'un-happier'.

When I was single or even married w/o kids, I can afford the additional workload/productivity but once you have kids, things are different. Of course you can be like FTs who bring in their parents to take care of their kids, while they prioritise work over their children. In my humble neighbourhood, you can see MANY (I really mean MANY) PRC grandparents bring their grandchildren to play...hardly ever see the parents.

The point is the GOVERNMENT needs to protect its own citizens....which I can see that they are trying hard...step by step.
- increased levy
- stricter and less PR approvals
- Higher local to FT/FW quota



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crayon33
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:19 am

In Singapore, we often take the most pragmatic solution that we encounter: No land? Fill the sea. No Water? Purify your Pee. No children? Import foreign people.

We have not yet learnt to be as pragmatic as the ancient Greeks, who practiced senicide and abandoned their elderly. No wait, did we not already propose sending our elderly to nursing homes in Johor Bahru? By we, I mean a certain Member of Parliament.








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ringrain_78
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:30 am

Had many of such discussions with my golf kakis as well. But there are 2 points which I find lacking in most such debates...

1) Respect for the BLUE COLLAR workers.

1 minister brought up a very good point regarding this and I find it heartening to be vaguely mentioned in this thread. Are we giving due respect to blue collar workers? We can apply it to whatever nationality of blue collar workers.

Example, would you pay extra for a good service by a plumber, a waiter, a painter for doing a good job? More often than none, we would try to find the cheapest service around. So the whole equation became "Cheapest get the job", and service & quality usually suffers. I personally believe this is one of the root cause of the constant complaints of bad service and poor attitude.

If we can give due recognition (and monetary benefits) to excellency in service and attitiude, can we reverse the FT vs Local argument? Will locals be more encouraged to take up jobs that are "less respectful"? Your guess is as good as mine...

2) Are local Singaporeans doing their bit to help local Singaporeans?

I've been hearing complaints about PR and foreigners pushing up prices of HDBs. I will concentrate just on HDB in my discussion since most (if not all) 1st hand HDB owners are locals.

Example, I am staying in a 5 room HDB, and after years of working and saving, and 2 children, I would like to upgrade to something bigger, etc. I call for viewing, so Local offer me $X COV, then PR/FT offers me $X x 20% more COV. Knowing that I need to pay for the new place, would I give preferential treatment to the Local? Or can we really adopt a "Singaporean First" policy even it means hurting our wallets?

Personally, those are tough questions, I see a clash in thinking especially, among the younger generation. While people of my generation are hard-wired for economic success, there seems to be more and more chest thumping, nationalistic pride among the younger folks.
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:48 am

I will pay more for better.....regardless of nationality, race or religion. ppl tend to forget it's the service or outcome that we are paying for. Do singaporeans need protection? Not if we look purely at the level of servic only. When you eat a delicious dinner do you wonder if the cook is local or foreign? If the food is good I will come back for more.... If bad, I will not finish the food and never come back. I will not go to the kitchen, check the nationality of the cook and base my decision on that. I remember many years ago, we brought in Dutch contractors to construct our line, we were all eager to learn from them for their experience and expertises. They were given preference over local contractors simply because they have that expertise and experience (their cost if ofcourse higher). Many years later when the competency o the local contractors improved, they were then chosen for the line upgrades. So look at level of service, you will be surprise the best performers are not all foreign or all locals, but rather a mixture. Ofcourse this is ideal but often hard to implement
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ringrain_78
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:17 pm

Precisely, I agree with Bro Tronos...

We are just treating the issue of FTs as a punching bag and an excuse. It had been way too easy to blame on them for everything.

How many times, have I heard that "now this kopi tiam, the coffee guy is not even a local, then how can the kopi be nice?", simple, give it a try, not nice, don't come back. But don't tell me that any and every local kopi uncle can make the kopi to your liking.

About protecting Singapore, I personally feel that certain sectors required some form of "protectionism". What sectors, i prefer not to mention.

For myself, in my industry, we do employ some FTs, but trust me, they are employed not at garang guni rates. Reason: they have a level of expertise that locals had yet to attain. Maybe in 5-8-10 yrs, hopefully, locals can do their jobs.
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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:25 pm

I think garmen eg....ministers need to be protected and only singaporeans can apply or recruited.
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pocketace
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:53 pm

shorthitter wrote:
tronos wrote:
"sit on your ass and create powerpoint slides" doing it right now LOL..u forgot surfing internet and posting in forums.....only somebody is depriving me of XMM photos so now more agitated...LOL

Check out my Facebook haha I was photographed with caddy I am still
Explaining to wife!

Ahh... I fondly recall that picture, mate
I think Laguna is on to something, well played.

Ok FT is here to stay. We gotta take the good with the bad. I work in an org where there are loads of FTs, some good some bad. The bad ones, I often wonder why can't a sg'rean do a better job. But I realized the sg'rean lack the ability to articulate themselves, they can't even get their foot in the door. But I reckoned the garmen recognized that too and slowly changing the edu system. Parents also recognize that and send the kids for speech and drama. Sg'reans need to step up, being hardworking alone is not enough. Work smart and manage upwards is impt too. Most importantly, once u proved yourself at work, open your mouth and ASK for promotion. If you paiseh paiseh, then someone else who ask will get it and you will be bitching among ourselves. My 2 cents
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bogeyman72
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:38 pm

Think they are already protected cos only pink IC can stand for election... ministers are appointed by garmen only after they win election, ya?

I could be wrong though.....

Rolling Eyes


Duval_S wrote:
I think garmen eg....ministers need to be protected and only singaporeans can apply or recruited.
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peace2903
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:22 pm

I feel sad reading some of the posts here. Some sort of 'colony master' mentality. I would love to know what jobs and in what industry that ppl think that Sgporeans can't do better or at least match a FT. I've worked with many FTs and mostly are half-filled vessels... They talked more than they know their stuff. For a start, never think a FT is more 'superior' than you...... Even if he's good, I'm sure there are things that you are better than a FT...
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:06 pm

Group photo cannot, will get divorced, but here are two.....



Beer
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asahi
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:21 pm

Nice pic , mate!
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Bangla123
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:35 pm

Without the inflow of FT's from the get go,
Singapore would not have turned out to be such a vibrant successful economy. Which means tht those of you who want to pay more to be served by Singaporeans would probably have not been able to afford that luxury
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PostSubject: Re: FT Influx   Today at 8:20 am

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