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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Releasing the clubface   Wed May 02, 2012 2:04 pm

Useful info, esp for beginners, on the release as it applies to the clubface. A common early mistake is the tendency to 'hang on' to the club face, keeping it square through impact as long as possible.

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Wed May 02, 2012 2:30 pm

there are many ways to swing the club that one mistake for one pro could actually be a key teaching move for another.

ben doyle has a video on the tube that catalogues different types of hinging and unhinging, the move the pro in above video shows is only one of the three releases. Although I did meet one TGM instructor here in Singapore once and he gave me a similar drill to exaggerate release with hands in case I slice. (note: drill only not to use on course)

Pete Cowen also teaches more shoulder turns for the average golfers (eventhough his student Oosthuizen release using hands more with his driver). We can find his video teaching on the subject. Keyword: Pete Cowen Papendal

Bradley Hughes main teaching is about releasing with the body/shoulders, which he believes how the grandmasters of old swung. This is very similar to how I've been taught by my pros in SG (namely Jhan and SH), or at least that's how I interpreted their lessons bcoz I'm no poster boy for their teachings Laughing hahaha



Last edited by pushslice on Wed May 02, 2012 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Wed May 02, 2012 3:44 pm

pushslice wrote:

ben doyle has video on the tube that catalogues different type of hinging and unhinging, the move the pro in the video shows is only one of the three releases. Although I met one TGM instructor here in Singapore once and he did gave me a drill to exaggerate release with hands in case I slice. (note: drill only not to use on course)

Interesting info there, esp for swing aficionados.

TGM has vertical hinging, horizontal hinging and angled hinging, for sure, to be used with different effect.

Bradley Hughes believes in laying off the club, impacting with a flattened plane, also a key element of the Ben Hogan swing. Sergio has this element in spades.

Pete Cowen is a low-key but highly successful coach with many stars in his stable and his talks are insightful.

I was browsing and saw the video above which I thought gave a good explanation for a common flaw of beginners, hanging on to a square clubface, thinking it helps to hit the ball straight. It's not intended as a complete and in depth study of the various types of hinging or releases.

But good that it triggered a detailed and informative response. Always something to learn out there.

FWIW, just an opinion, I think the Bradley Hughes move is too difficult for most beginners to master. It's counter-intuitive, but highly rewarding when done well.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 1:46 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
Useful info, esp for beginners, on the release as it applies to the clubface. A common early mistake is the tendency to 'hang on' to the club face, keeping it square through impact as long as possible.

Useful for anyone who's slicing the ball ... they'll probably see right to left spin for the first time! However, imho this is not a good way to swing through impact ... very handsy! ... especially 1:56 when he says the clubface should close immediately (1m) after impact ... this is hook country!!! But then again luke donald gets away with it with his irons but not so much with his driver ... anyways, for an amateur, I have come to realize its a very inconsistent way of striking the ball as it relies heavily on timing and encourages flipping ... there is an easier alternative ...

Thanks to trackman and the d-plane everyone has a much better understanding of swing plane/ club path/ face angle ... and 'swinging left' encourages better compression and 'zeroes out' the path/ club face ... and I personally feel the amateur will be able to hit the ball further ... how do S&T , Right_Sided, Sean Foley students hit the ball so far ... 'angular momentum' , i.e. rotational force and torque

While the 'slice' hampers most high handicappers' progression ... 'flipping' is what keeps a player from becoming any good!

Also , some of the greatest ball strikers of all time ... lee trevino and arnold palmer come to mind ... 'hung on' to the club face and never let the toe overtake the heel ... food for thought!

Goes to show there is no one way of doing anything in golf ... and one must educate themselves or find a damn good coach Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 3:05 pm

! Watch the 2 videos now f#^*ing hooking my driver uncontrollably.

Talk about sub conscious learning, I wasn't even trying to copy anything!


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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 3:09 pm

Derek wrote:
! Watch the 2 videos now f#^*ing hooking my driver uncontrollably.

Talk about sub conscious learning, I wasn't even trying to copy anything!


ha ha ha ... this is hilarious ... ROFL

Now that I got that out of the way ... try the hooded face drill ... grip with face preset to closed (up to 45 degrees even) ... and then try and hit straight or fades ... you'll be back Beer
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 7:11 pm

Derek wrote:
! Watch the 2 videos now f#^*ing hooking my driver uncontrollably.

Talk about sub conscious learning, I wasn't even trying to copy anything!


This is an amazing incident of learning ability.

Maybe watching some videos of Tiger hitting it down the fairway will bring it right back. cheers
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 7:29 pm

TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Useful info, esp for beginners, on the release as it applies to the clubface. A common early mistake is the tendency to 'hang on' to the club face, keeping it square through impact as long as possible.

Useful for anyone who's slicing the ball ... they'll probably see right to left spin for the first time! However, imho this is not a good way to swing through impact ... very handsy! ... especially 1:56 when he says the clubface should close immediately (1m) after impact ... this is hook country!!! But then again luke donald gets away with it with his irons but not so much with his driver ... anyways, for an amateur, I have come to realize its a very inconsistent way of striking the ball as it relies heavily on timing and encourages flipping ... there is an easier alternative ...

Thanks to trackman and the d-plane everyone has a much better understanding of swing plane/ club path/ face angle ... and 'swinging left' encourages better compression and 'zeroes out' the path/ club face ... and I personally feel the amateur will be able to hit the ball further ... how do S&T , Right_Sided, Sean Foley students hit the ball so far ... 'angular momentum' , i.e. rotational force and torque

While the 'slice' hampers most high handicappers' progression ... 'flipping' is what keeps a player from becoming any good!

Also , some of the greatest ball strikers of all time ... lee trevino and arnold palmer come to mind ... 'hung on' to the club face and never let the toe overtake the heel ... food for thought!

Goes to show there is no one way of doing anything in golf ... and one must educate themselves or find a damn good coach Smile

I like this post. Very good in moving the discussion forward.

Releasing the clubface and flipping are two distinct elements. And by the way, an interesting question about flipping. Do some pros do it?

But certainly, those who can employ a flat left wrist through impact are not what I would term as beginners already.

Interesting point about Arnold Palmer. I was not aware he hung on to a square club face through impact. Upon this info, I took a look at his swing videos, and finally understand why he has a helicopter finish.

So those beginners who are learning to hit using the style of Arnold Palmer with the helicopter finish are exempt, I would agree.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 7:50 pm

TourSwing wrote:
Thanks to trackman and the d-plane everyone has a much better understanding of swing plane/ club path/ face angle ... and 'swinging left' encourages better compression and 'zeroes out' the path/ club face ... and I personally feel the amateur will be able to hit the ball further ... how do S&T , Right_Sided, Sean Foley students hit the ball so far ... 'angular momentum' , i.e. rotational force and torque

Here's a famous Sean Foley student, swing video taken just before the 2012 Honda tournament.

Check out the slow motion section at the 49 second mark, and see his hand and club face position right after impact.



A snap shot here. Check out his hands and the club face, imo a very good illustration of releasing the club face.



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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 8:08 pm

And from the recent Maybank Malaysian Open, Singapore's very own.



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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 8:31 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Useful info, esp for beginners, on the release as it applies to the clubface. A common early mistake is the tendency to 'hang on' to the club face, keeping it square through impact as long as possible.

Useful for anyone who's slicing the ball ... they'll probably see right to left spin for the first time! However, imho this is not a good way to swing through impact ... very handsy! ... especially 1:56 when he says the clubface should close immediately (1m) after impact ... this is hook country!!! But then again luke donald gets away with it with his irons but not so much with his driver ... anyways, for an amateur, I have come to realize its a very inconsistent way of striking the ball as it relies heavily on timing and encourages flipping ... there is an easier alternative ...

Thanks to trackman and the d-plane everyone has a much better understanding of swing plane/ club path/ face angle ... and 'swinging left' encourages better compression and 'zeroes out' the path/ club face ... and I personally feel the amateur will be able to hit the ball further ... how do S&T , Right_Sided, Sean Foley students hit the ball so far ... 'angular momentum' , i.e. rotational force and torque

While the 'slice' hampers most high handicappers' progression ... 'flipping' is what keeps a player from becoming any good!

Also , some of the greatest ball strikers of all time ... lee trevino and arnold palmer come to mind ... 'hung on' to the club face and never let the toe overtake the heel ... food for thought!

Goes to show there is no one way of doing anything in golf ... and one must educate themselves or find a damn good coach Smile

I like this post. Very good in moving the discussion forward.

Releasing the clubface and flipping are two distinct elements. And by the way, an interesting question about flipping. Do some pros do it?

But certainly, those who can employ a flat left wrist through impact are not what I would term as beginners already.

Interesting point about Arnold Palmer. I was not aware he hung on to a square club face through impact. Upon this info, I took a look at his swing videos, and finally understand why he has a helicopter finish.

So those beginners who are learning to hit using the style of Arnold Palmer with the helicopter finish are exempt, I would agree.

The guy in the video says roll the left forearm closed as early as it possibly can ... I am not saying this is wrong ... and neither am I saying none of the pros do it ... I am simply saying imho there is an easier way to go about doing it!

1) An active roll means the rate of closure is much quicker thus leaving little margin of error ... pros hit something like a 1000 balls a day and hence timing is hard-coded ... an amateur could definitely do with a simpler and more repeatable method!

2) An active roll means the player is consciously doing something with his hands ... usually a bad idea! I am not saying releasing and flipping are the same thing ... they are however related. When a player consciously uses their hands ... I call it being handsy ... and I would guess for 9/10 amateurs that would mean flipping as well. One of the key ways to hold on to lag and have an effective release is for the pivot to lead the hands ... and when amateurs try to use their hands , they usually release too early ... why not try a method where the body (core) squares the club face rather than manipulation of the hands ... when it comes down to it ... big muscles always win!

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 9:50 pm

1 method, different ppl will have different result. There is no single way to hit the ball, that's why Bubba can win Master! Bubba bubba bubba ...
Cheers Jump
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stickman
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Fri May 04, 2012 10:27 pm

This is good stuff. I will have to read it again and digest further.

I lack distance and was looking at this part of the swing as I suspect this is one of the area for me to work on.

Cheerous cheers sunny cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sat May 05, 2012 1:13 am

Very enlightening. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sat May 05, 2012 3:25 am

turn and roll
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sat May 05, 2012 9:14 am

All road leads to Rome. If u had found yours n leading u there, good for u.
For me, I m still finding my way Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sat May 05, 2012 4:36 pm

The release or pronation of the right hand upon impact is also being stressed by

AJ Bonar. I have been a fan & student of AJ Bonar swing and this is also what he has been teaching with a indepth explanation

Sadly there's no Uploaded video of Bonar swiing on what the hand should be doing
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sat May 05, 2012 9:40 pm

TourSwing wrote:

The guy in the video says roll the left forearm closed as early as it possibly can ... I am not saying this is wrong ... and neither am I saying none of the pros do it ... I am simply saying imho there is an easier way to go about doing it!

1) An active roll means the rate of closure is much quicker thus leaving little margin of error ... pros hit something like a 1000 balls a day and hence timing is hard-coded ... an amateur could definitely do with a simpler and more repeatable method!

2) An active roll means the player is consciously doing something with his hands ... usually a bad idea! I am not saying releasing and flipping are the same thing ... they are however related. When a player consciously uses their hands ... I call it being handsy ... and I would guess for 9/10 amateurs that would mean flipping as well. One of the key ways to hold on to lag and have an effective release is for the pivot to lead the hands ... and when amateurs try to use their hands , they usually release too early ... why not try a method where the body (core) squares the club face rather than manipulation of the hands ... when it comes down to it ... big muscles always win!

I do see some of the points you are making.

But bringing Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino as examples to make your point, and then using the old "pros hit a lot of balls, amateurs don't, so pros are not a good example" argument when I use Tiger and Mardan similarly to make a point... ?

When a player consciously uses his hands, I agree, that is a death move. So, the key question then, an interesting one, is there a way to 'roll' (release the club face) WITHOUT conscious use of the hands?

I guess this is already answered below.

zhenxua wrote:
turn and roll

When the geometry is in sync, the club face will close (release) as the body turns, provided the player is not, to borrow a phrase, actively using his hands to hold on to a square club face.

But yes, thinking about the hands or actively using the hands, USUALLY not a good idea I agree, unless the pivot is sufficiently grooved such that the hands fire only as the last element in the sequence.

When I use hands and get it right, I hit it further than usual.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sat May 05, 2012 10:55 pm

Lee , we are on slightly different wavelengths ... let me try and bridge the gap

Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino were mentioned to point out the other extreme ... I do not advocate their style nor do I attempt to follow it ... its just the other end of the spectrum ... and for some players holding on may actually work quite well ...

I never said pros are not a good example , I learn a lot from pros everyday and admire them immensely ... imho an active roll of the wrists requires timing , and I have discovered an easier way ... a more passive roll of the wrists which is powered and controlled by the pivot ... which should work rather well for most of the amateurs who cant hit 100s of balls at the range on a regular basis ... it will also make compression more easier to achieve , cause the pivot is already there to build on

There are A LOT of pros who have an active roll , and I myself mentioned Luke Donald #1!

The video you posted originally has the guy telling us to roll over the wrists asap ... Is that the point you are making?
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 9:35 am

Lee36328 wrote:

When I use hands and get it right, I hit it further than usual.

I think lee just shared the secrets to hitting 9i to prodigious length.

Whenever I try with more hands, my drives go wild. I prefer the low maintenance release, using pivot and swinging left. Shorter for me yes, but more in the fairway.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 11:40 am

TourSwing wrote:
Lee , we are on slightly different wavelengths ... let me try and bridge the gap

Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino were mentioned to point out the other extreme ... I do not advocate their style nor do I attempt to follow it ... its just the other end of the spectrum ... and for some players holding on may actually work quite well ...

I never said pros are not a good example , I learn a lot from pros everyday and admire them immensely ... imho an active roll of the wrists requires timing , and I have discovered an easier way ... a more passive roll of the wrists which is powered and controlled by the pivot ... which should work rather well for most of the amateurs who cant hit 100s of balls at the range on a regular basis ... it will also make compression more easier to achieve , cause the pivot is already there to build on

There are A LOT of pros who have an active roll , and I myself mentioned Luke Donald #1!

The video you posted originally has the guy telling us to roll over the wrists asap ... Is that the point you are making?

Actually, been thinking about this last night. The more I pondered it, the more I realise we are on the same page.

Actively rolling, hand-dominated rolling, is a big no-no. How did I get sidetracked and miss this?

What I wanted to advocate is this: In virtually all the beginners who've asked me to look at their swings at the range since I spend so much time there, they think they need to hold a club face pointing to the target before, during and after impact. And they struggle with a slice. When told what the club face needs to do through impact, you can see the light bulb in their expression. And they start hitting straighter shots as they add this element of club face closure to their existing pivot.

But again, I agree, actively rolling with hands, a big no no. Must find the right way to get the club face to close/release.

So, interesting question to ponder. What about the pros? I posted some of the pictures. Are they using hands actively? It certainly looks that way. Question Idea


Last edited by Lee36328 on Sun May 06, 2012 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 11:43 am

pushslice wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:

When I use hands and get it right, I hit it further than usual.

I think lee just shared the secrets to hitting 9i to prodigious length.

Whenever I try with more hands, my drives go wild. I prefer the low maintenance release, using pivot and swinging left. Shorter for me yes, but more in the fairway.

Power accumulators #1, 2, 3, 4, and if possible, 5, 6, 7, .... Shocked

cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 11:54 am

IMHO. I think the first thing beginners sud do is to get into the correct impact position. Eg hands in front of clubhead, head behind the ball, hitting the ball first, being comfortable with quarter and half swings.

There absolutely is no point mastering rolling of hands if u do not get into the correct position.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 1:29 pm

From what I have learnt recently.
When you do a proper hip turn with your torso.
Your arms and hands should automatically releases the club face.
I stand corrected.

P.S. I also agree with nientsu
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 9:40 pm

nientsu wrote:
IMHO. I think the first thing beginners sud do is to get into the correct impact position. Eg hands in front of clubhead, head behind the ball, hitting the ball first, being comfortable with quarter and half swings.

There absolutely is no point mastering rolling of hands if u do not get into the correct position.

Yes, that's true, agreed. Set up is paramount.

But I did not start this thread with the intention of laying down all the steps a beginner should do.

Just saw a video which explained a point I see quite often in many beginners, that's why I posted it.

Interestingly, even quarter and half swings need to 'release' the club face to square it up. In fact, for less than full swing, the face actually needs some help squaring and releasing since the lower body is not fully engaged to help close the face compared to a full swing.
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