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TourSwing
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Sun May 06, 2012 11:13 pm


Im not sure I understand the needing help bit .. My putting stroke is on a slight arc .. but I dont manipulate the face at all to square it ... the release just happens, unless you intentionally hold back

My chipping stroke is a hinge back, and a hold, with the pivot squaring the face ... courtesy Stan Utley ... So for me I guess putting is the only stroke without a pivot
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 10:25 am

I'm a big fan of this guy's swing.. hanging on just a bit and swinging left. Not considered long obviously but he's among the best on euro tour at getting GIR.



another example of him with the driver

http://www.golf.com/video/francesco-molinaris-swing-sequence

However, one of the best ball strikers at PGATour (JOHN SENDEN baby!), swings with a very handsy release. See the striking difference with Molinari's release



so I guess whatever works la, as long as we commit to it and find a coach that can teach the method properly.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 11:51 am

TourSwing wrote:

Im not sure I understand the needing help bit .. My putting stroke is on a slight arc .. but I dont manipulate the face at all to square it ... the release just happens, unless you intentionally hold back

My chipping stroke is a hinge back, and a hold, with the pivot squaring the face ... courtesy Stan Utley ... So for me I guess putting is the only stroke without a pivot

I was thinking more of chipping and punch shots, esp on uneven lies where we can't rotate without risking losing our balance.

I find in those circumstances, the face tends to be open since the rotation from the body is reduced, no longer helping the club face to close/release. If I use purely hands to close it, without the hips opening up, it may hook. So I close the club face a touch at address instead.

You hit the nail on the head on putting when you said the release happens unless you do something to hold it. For me, I like this type of release for normal shots, esp longer clubs, woods, drivers.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 11:57 am

pushslice wrote:
I'm a big fan of this guy's swing.. hanging on just a bit and swinging left. Not considered long obviously but he's among the best on euro tour at getting GIR.

However, one of the best ball strikers at PGATour (JOHN SENDEN baby!), swings with a very handsy release. See the striking difference with Molinari's release

Good point.

Hands add distance at the expense of accuracy and bite upon landing.

So when I need to cut a shot into a tight pin on a fast green, I need to remind myself to take 1 extra club.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 12:01 pm

Is this handsy?

Or body release?

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 12:34 pm

Check out the release of this Wells Fargo winner.





Impressive that he won the playoff by sticking his 51 degree to within 4 feet of the pin. Anything less than a perfect shot, he would be in the creek.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 1:25 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
Is this handsy?

Or body release?



Body

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 1:26 pm

Lee36328 wrote:
Is this handsy?

Or body release?



Looks handsy, but IMHO, i dont think it is.

On his downswing, IMO, his power comes from his legs and hips. From there he loads his shaft till the very very last min, then releases the club. Thats prob the reason why you see an explosive release. Then again, timing will be a big big issue.

Emphasis should not be on his release, but how he loads his shaft with the energy derived from the leg and hip drive.

Pls take this with a pinch of salt, am just a weekend golfer
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 1:30 pm

TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Is this handsy?

Or body release?



Body

+1.the butt end of the shaft still points to Sergio's torso.

If the butt points toward the camera, then its handsy.

TS, you got just the right frame! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 1:37 pm

pushslice wrote:
TourSwing wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Is this handsy?

Or body release?



Body

+1.the butt end of the shaft still points to Sergio's torso.

If the butt points toward the camera, then its handsy.

TS, you got just the right frame! Laughing


Ha ha ... I did , didnt I ... Beer
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 1:49 pm

nientsu wrote:
Lee36328 wrote:
Is this handsy?

Or body release?
Looks handsy, but IMHO, i dont think it is.

On his downswing, IMO, his power comes from his legs and hips. From there he loads his shaft till the very very last min, then releases the club. Thats prob the reason why you see an explosive release. Then again, timing will be a big big issue.

Emphasis should not be on his release, but how he loads his shaft with the energy derived from the leg and hip drive.

Pls take this with a pinch of salt, am just a weekend golfer

Quite the contrary ... timing is less of an issue here ... neither does his pivot stall nor club handle slow down ... in the pic I posted you can see his clubface hasnt rotated all that much through the impact zone ... this is a hall of fame swing which will probably never go down into the hall of fame for different reasons ...

Now this one below requires timing!

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:04 pm

From Geoff Jones aka "SliceFixer" ... Encyclopedia Texarkana ... do not confuse his terms with the TGM ones ... these are his own.

--------------------------------------------------------
Flipping is ANY manipulation of the golf club with the hands or wrists. This usually relies on slowingthe core to flip the club over to square the face WITH the hands and wrists. There is an inverting of the butt of the club in the impact zone that relies on the hands and wrists to overcome a stuck shaftand club face.

I have NO problem with someone releasing the club with their ARMS and forearms. I prefer to seethe club square itself up naturally, but, if a person wants to “hit“with the arms no biggie. That isperfectly acceptable; just NOT with the hands and wrists.

In most cases a player releases the club in a similar fashion on all full shots and the basic make-upof their pivots and releases remain the same (within’ a small margin). Tiger Woods is a bit of ananomaly. Tiger Woods sometimes is and sometimes is not a slinger (hitter) of the golf club.Watching footage you will notice the differences in his footwork and the way the club and armsrelease as unmistakable evidence of both release types.

Ernie Ells and Fred Couples are clearly slingers of the golf club, with the exception of short shotsand certain specialty shots, such as knockdowns. Hogan, Snead, Trevino, Nick Price, David Toms,Christ Dimarco, Jeff Sluman, Jim Furyk, Justin Leonard, Jonathan Byrd, Trevor Immelrman, andHunter Mahon are examples of swingers of the club that release to the left.

I have seen Tiger Woods makes some phenomenally rotational swings over the years (especiallyin the past 18 months and with the irons), but I don’t think I have ever seen any footage of himhitting a driver where he did anything other than sling it down the line. In my opinion, that is why hehas driven the ball all over hell at some points in his career. He has obviously changed someelements in the past few months and is now aiming more left and open, which allows him to moreeasily reach his left side pivot-point and clear out a bit more around and left. With this change he isnot getting so underneath, up on both toes, and blocked out. The result is the club release morenaturally and he hits HARD fades instead of trying to manipulate a draw with his hands/arms.

Tiger, Ells, and Couples ALL 3 create tremendous leverage in their swings, and the longer you canhold the leverage the more potential power can be released. One potential problem, however, isthat if the player holds the angles/power package/leverage DEEP into their downswing, then theyhad better know how to get to their left side/pivot point and rotate their core left and take the buttwith them, as Mr. Hogan and Snead did (with the face squaring up and releasing naturally). Thealternative is that they will be in a predicament. If they keep holding the leverage they tend to getmore and more blocked or stuck and are then forced to panic flip the club to square it. This is aVERY unreliable method unless you have incredible timing. They must focus more on releasing theclub earlier in the downswing. Both of these methods are compensations for an earlier error intechnique. Although you can hit it a mile, both distance and trajectory, with a combination of inside,stick, and slinging , you will never be consistently accurate and will suffer from some wild ridesaround the course from time to time.

Couples and Ells look slow and smooth partly because the acceleration of the core is notpredominate with either of them. They both turn and wind more on top of the ball in their backswing, have a lot of lower body drive in their transition, then their core slows to allow their arms to catch up and square the face. They are both slingers of the club head, and that is why theyboth can snap hook or block it off the face of the planet at times when they miss-time the slow and sling downswing. When their timing is on, however, they can make the game look unbelievablyeasy. They both have superior rhythm, out of necessity. They have to maintain superior rhythm or they would hit it all over hell. Both have a tendency to release the club with the arms ACROSS thebody a bit (armsy-release) which requires the body to slow a bit so the arms can catch up andrelease the club and square it. They are similar players in that their ball striking is somewhatstreaky, not from a solidity standpoint, but from an accuracy standpoint. Fred can hit it a mile off-line at times, but always, I mean ALWAYS, finds the center of the face. Ells seems to be exactly the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:12 pm

Thanks TS for the clarification. Gives me soemthing to think about, other than shitty work.

BTW, from my excavation of my old hard drive, i realised i got a a pdf copy of Medicus golf swingology guide and Sevam1's Secret is in the dirt.

Any interest? If so, PM me your email. The Medicus Swingology is 10mb!!
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:22 pm

nientsu wrote:
Thanks TS for the clarification. Gives me soemthing to think about, other than shitty work.

BTW, from my excavation of my old hard drive, i realised i got a a pdf copy of Medicus golf swingology guide and Sevam1's Secret is in the dirt.

Any interest? If so, PM me your email. The Medicus Swingology is 10mb!!

Monday blues... no wonder we all need to seek 'release'. Very Happy

Thanks, will take you up on this kind offer on the pdf copy.


Last edited by Lee36328 on Mon May 07, 2012 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:24 pm

TourSwing wrote:
From Geoff Jones aka "SliceFixer" ... Encyclopedia Texarkana ... do not confuse his terms with the TGM ones ... these are his own.

...

Ah, I knew there's was some SliceFixer in there somewhere, judging from your earlier comments.

Good insightful comments on Els and Couples. Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:27 pm

@#^@^^$%*^!!!!!! Irons hook, driver block-slice, hybrids block straight right ...

I am not joking ... any insights? or suggestions? ... besides quitting golf?
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:29 pm

Derek wrote:
@#^@^^$%*^!!!!!! Irons hook, driver block-slice, hybrids block straight right ...

I am not joking ... any insights? or suggestions? ... besides quitting golf?

bro, check this out. Very helpful.

http://www.mygolfkakiacademy.com/

got staff discount? What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:34 pm

pushslice wrote:
Derek wrote:
@#^@^^$%*^!!!!!! Irons hook, driver block-slice, hybrids block straight right ...

I am not joking ... any insights? or suggestions? ... besides quitting golf?

bro, check this out. Very helpful.

http://www.mygolfkakiacademy.com/

got staff discount? What a Face

ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 2:40 pm

Derek wrote:
@#^@^^$%*^!!!!!! Irons hook, driver block-slice, hybrids block straight right ...

I am not joking ... any insights? or suggestions? ... besides quitting golf?

I love how you can just step out and hit a few balls during your lunch break!!!

Quit golf , or quit drinking Beer
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 3:11 pm

Hi guys

Emails sent.
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 3:20 pm

nientsu wrote:
Hi guys

Emails sent.

That was fast, thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 3:20 pm

So, looking at the PGA Tour 2012 stats, lets find the most accurate player in terms of both proximity to hole and GIR. That means they hit a high number of GIR and get it close to the pin when they do.

Turns out, it's rare to be ranked near the top in both categories.

And we get...

Steve Stricker - Proximity to the hole no. 1, GIR no. 7. In fact, he is the only player in the top 10 for both categories.

and, just outside the top 10, we have:

Justin Rose - Proximity to the hole T11, GIR no. 3

Here are their releases.

Steve Stricker



This one has a good view of the hands from the front.



Justin Rose



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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 4:23 pm

Ya, SteveS has a nice quiet release ... no wonder he's clinical in the scoring zone!


And the Fex Ex cup leader ...


And the most studied swing of all time ...
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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 4:27 pm

For those who are still confused ...

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PostSubject: Re: Releasing the clubface   Mon May 07, 2012 4:46 pm

Thanks for all the posts and videos guys.

I've had a bit of an epiphany while digesting this thread and it all started with the point in the first instructional video about thinking of the heel of the club instead of the toe and centering the forearm rotation around the heel. I do recall discovering something like this sometime back while at the range. The video just crystallised the process for me. Will attempt to confirm this the next time I hit the range.

Something else I noticed with the swings of Woods, Garcia, Senden, and Fowler that makes me ask:

Is there a correlation between their swing planes and their release, via the body or hands, through the hitting zone?

Tiger Woods - At the 9 o'clock position, the clubface is shut, seemingly more of a left arm pushing straight back for the first quarter of the swing with a later forearm pronation That returns the clubface to square at the top of the backswing. At the top, his swing plane is flat (notice his left forearm in line with his right shoulder joint). Through the hitting zone, clubface rotation is more passive, more body than hands.

John Senden - Pronates his forearms early in the backswing compared to Woods, resulting in a toe up, or squarer clubface at the 9 o'clock position. At the top, his forearms are closer to his ears in a more upright swing plane. Through the hitting zone, his release is faster and seems to be more of a result of active hands.

Sergio Garcia - If Woods is Papa Bear and Senden is Baby Bear, then Garcia is Mama Bear. He pushes the clubface straight back but doesn't pronate his forearms as late as Woods or as early as Senden to a toe up position at 9 o'clock where the shaft is in line with his left forearm. Top of the backswing, his forearms are between his ears and right shoulder joint for the most neutral swing plane. Through the hitting zone, it seems to me that his release is a combination of body pivot and a touch of active hands.

Ricky Fowler - After seeing Freaky Fowler's swing in slow motion, I was gobsmacked. Pretty much the same as Woods through the early part of the takeaway, pushing straight back with little pronation of the forearms all the way to the top of the backswing. At 9 o'clock, his clubface is shut and clubhead way outside the hands like Woods (Garcia and Senden on the other hand have the shaft and clubhead in line with their forearms). Flattest swing plane of the lot with his forearms actually below his right shoulder joint and the clubface still shut. Through the hitting zone, the release is similar to that of Woods, more passive. Because of the camera angle, I'm not sure if Fowler is laid off to the left at the top, and is it my imagination that he swings more left than Garcia who is more down the line? I'm wondering cos with that shut clubface position at the top, if Fowler were to swing more down the line like Garcia, I'm thinking it would result in a massive hook.

Dive in with your comments and thoughts all. cheers
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