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 can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?

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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:00 pm

I am sure many expert clubfitters or professionals designers for clubs in the big boys are all well versed in ergonomics. You cannot be a industrial designer nowadays without any clue in it. I am sure whatever that is applicable are mostly done.

This is not F1 racing where if you design switches close together and the driver could have an advantage switching faster.

What kind of ergonomics are you talking about? A better grip that fit your individual hand? Illegal. Special lie angle that makes it easier? Illegal. There is a limit of what they can do. Shalf lengths, grip size, lie angle etc are all what they can do for ergonomics and those are already done.

Perhaps as a matured design practitioner now you may tell us more areas that are applicable but not practiced and I am sure many people would be interested to know.

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:46 pm

sunny wrote:
I am sure many expert clubfitters or professionals designers for clubs in the big boys are all well versed in ergonomics. You cannot be a industrial designer nowadays without any clue in it. I am sure whatever that is applicable are mostly done.

This is not F1 racing where if you design switches close together and the driver could have an advantage switching faster.

What kind of ergonomics are you talking about? A better grip that fit your individual hand? Illegal. Special lie angle that makes it easier? Illegal. There is a limit of what they can do. Shalf lengths, grip size, lie angle etc are all what they can do for ergonomics and those are already done.

Perhaps as a matured design practitioner now you may tell us more areas that are applicable but not practiced and I am sure many people would be interested to know.

@Sunny: Not sure if u hv ever ridden a smaller bike thats not urs or borrowed a friend's smaller slippers when visiting his backyard bbq... We instinctively know when somethings just doesn’t fit right. Yes , industrial design has always considered ergonomics and most golf clubs and accessories mass manufactured are all based on the concept of “average” sized males or females.

Items that are customisable are usually a pleasure to use or own. I am sure most of us, and not only fitters, will agree that golf clubs r most efficient when individually sized to the person. One Size Does NOT Fit All!

Oso the concept of what is an “average” sized individual has also changed over time. The average height/weight of a man according to auxology studies hv shown to hv increased with better healthcare n diet. Average height/weight also varies across nations , not just between USA and Jap/Asian specs. Can u tell me what is the average size of Singaporeans today? Are we the same as today's average Japanese or for that matter the average Asian?

Industrial designers who design items, not necc only golf clubs, for mass production do not cater for the individual but rather for the general population. It works for most products which does not really hv a direct bearing on health or can cause injuries/ accidents as a result of its continued use eg chairs, tables, remote controls etc... I am advocating that a deeper knowledge of ergonomics would help fitters match the specific person to their eqpt to minimise injury. Not only is it uncomfortable to use golf clubs that don’t fit, but it also predisposes an individual to increased stress on joints and muscles. Muscles and joints work most efficiently when used in their midrange of available movement. Golf postures and action like prolonged reaching, varying swing paths or strong twisting stresses the body beyond its reparative abilities and symptoms can develop or reduce blood flow and increase tension in muscles of the neck or back leading to the development of persistent pain and are contributing factors to the development of repetitive strain injuries, such as shoulder pain, golfers elbow and trigger fingers. Once these injuries are established they are often difficult to treat and manage.

To answer ur question on "What kind of ergonomics are you talking about?" here i am referring to fitters to perhaps needing a more indepth knowledge or even qualifications of ergonomics (so with correct grip/ swing techniques) therefore to help proactively identify risk factors and prevent golf injuries.

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:49 pm

Hands up if you've lost the plot.

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:50 pm

Toyota makes seats of terrible ergonomics.. Unlike hondas, mitsubishi or the newer nissan models..

I really dun understand how ergonomics is related to golf, if there is anything else, kinesiology would be more apt in my opinion.

@Jeffman88: Care to explain in simpler grammar and vocab like atypical Dr Seuss's novel ?
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duffader
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:54 pm

jeffman88 wrote:
sunny wrote:
I am sure many expert clubfitters or professionals designers for clubs in the big boys are all well versed in ergonomics. You cannot be a industrial designer nowadays without any clue in it. I am sure whatever that is applicable are mostly done.

This is not F1 racing where if you design switches close together and the driver could have an advantage switching faster.

What kind of ergonomics are you talking about? A better grip that fit your individual hand? Illegal. Special lie angle that makes it easier? Illegal. There is a limit of what they can do. Shalf lengths, grip size, lie angle etc are all what they can do for ergonomics and those are already done.

Perhaps as a matured design practitioner now you may tell us more areas that are applicable but not practiced and I am sure many people would be interested to know.

@Sunny: Not sure if u hv ever ridden a smaller bike thats not urs or borrowed a friend's smaller slippers when visiting his backyard bbq... We instinctively know when somethings just doesn’t fit right. Yes , industrial design has always considered ergonomics and most golf clubs and accessories mass manufactured are all based on the concept of “average” sized males or females.

Items that are customisable are usually a pleasure to use or own. I am sure most of us, and not only fitters, will agree that golf clubs r most efficient when individually sized to the person. One Size Does NOT Fit All!

Oso the concept of what is an “average” sized individual has also changed over time. The average height/weight of a man according to auxology studies hv shown to hv increased with better healthcare n diet. Average height/weight also varies across nations , not just between USA and Jap/Asian specs. Can u tell me what is the average size of Singaporeans today? Are we the same as today's average Japanese or for that matter the average Asian?

Industrial designers who design items, not necc only golf clubs, for mass production do not cater for the individual but rather for the general population. It works for most products which does not really hv a direct bearing on health or can cause injuries/ accidents as a result of its continued use eg chairs, tables, remote controls etc... I am advocating that a deeper knowledge of ergonomics would help fitters match the specific person to their eqpt to minimise injury. Not only is it uncomfortable to use golf clubs that don’t fit, but it also predisposes an individual to increased stress on joints and muscles. Muscles and joints work most efficiently when used in their midrange of available movement. Golf postures and action like prolonged reaching, varying swing paths or strong twisting stresses the body beyond its reparative abilities and symptoms can develop or reduce blood flow and increase tension in muscles of the neck or back leading to the development of persistent pain and are contributing factors to the development of repetitive strain injuries, such as shoulder pain, golfers elbow and trigger fingers. Once these injuries are established they are often difficult to treat and manage.

To answer ur question on "What kind of ergonomics are you talking about?" here i am referring to fitters to perhaps needing a more indepth knowledge or even qualifications of ergonomics (so with correct grip/ swing techniques) therefore to help proactively identify risk factors and prevent golf injuries.



Hahahaha
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 12:59 pm

Jeff but isn't correct grip size already part of what they are fitting currently? Sorry for my ignorance but I thought we should know instinctively if the grip size is too big or small for us. And I have seen a lot of fitters use the palm size measurement before fitting grip too. I don't think we need the club fitters to get a diploma certification in ergonomics for fitting grip size. I am hoping to hear more advance insights.

Regarding swing techniques, I think that is the job of the golf coaches rather than club fitters right? Begbie is right, kinesiology, physiology or even psychology would be good certifications for professional coaches and in fact a lot of them are trained in them

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:02 pm

Technospaz wrote:
Hands up if you've lost the plot.

Hands up !!!

TS: reminds me of our trip to golf bargains ... In a sea of badly cluttered discounted clubs, I actually managed to find something i could use tho how confusing it was to navigate ard it.

Take ur time to read and try to understand Jeffman88 post and make the effort, u may actually find somewhat useful and may be applied in ur everyday life. Its only 2 minutes of ur life.. What is 2 minutes against spending a full hour wasting time having lunch with me ..
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:24 pm

sunny wrote:
Jeff but isn't correct grip size already part of what they are fitting currently? Sorry for my ignorance but I thought we should know instinctively if the grip size is too big or small for us. And I have seen a lot of fitters use the palm size measurement before fitting grip too. I don't think we need the club fitters to get a diploma certification in ergonomics for fitting grip size. I am hoping to hear more advance insights.

Regarding swing techniques, I think that is the job of the golf coaches rather than club fitters right? Begbie is right, kinesiology, physiology or even psychology would be good certifications for professional coaches and in fact a lot of them are trained in them

Gripsize: lets use an analogy here : which is correct sized for the average singapore hand/ palm : Samsung S3 or iPhone5? Do users instinctively know if one is too big or small. ? S3's or iPhone5's offerings are fixed whether u r a petite lady r possess an XL sized hand... or take it further which of the 2 product's buttons are the correct size for again the average Singaporean's index finger? Basically for such products u hv no choice as industrial designers hv deemed it so with concurrence from marketing, engineering and production. For grips, I would say its subjective.. as there are size options... to me an off the shelf club's grip may be fine but a fitter might think otherwise... again here one would argue if it feels right for me its fine. Sure if u wanna go that way but again theres both science/art in grip size fitting and i'm sure a well trained fitter would be able to give better advice. My belief is that with a better understanding of ergonomics the fitter would be able to explain to the the undecided or uninitiated why a change is for the better. Like all new things , the new recommended grip will take time to get used to before it feels "good"... The difference here is that one has a choice. But that choice can be as easy as u want to make or as difficult as u want it be depending on one's attitude to this whole clubfitting theory. Its either u fit the grip to the person or the person adjusts to the given grip (say if she/he doesnt see or feel any difference)

Re Swing techniques, I also believe fitters shd hv ample in-depth knowledge. Of course this is where we can agree to disagree - cos likewise i feel swingcoaches oso need to have some understanding of fitting. Today its hard to live in a silo anymore as cross-understanding only increases ones ability to do the job better.
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:31 pm

omg...how much of this theory will help you in the game...I assume most of you are weekend golfers not club fitting theorist Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:38 pm

pushslice wrote:
omg...how much of this theory will help you in the game...I assume most of you are weekend golfers not club fitting theorist Laughing

reminds me of this oldie: rendeer

The doctor said, "Joe, the good news is I can cure your headaches. The bad news is that it will require castration. You have a very rare condition, which causes your testicles to press on your spine, and the pressure creates one hell of a headache. The only way to relieve the pressure is to remove the testicles."

Joe was shocked and depressed. He wondered if he had anything to live for. He couldn't concentrate long enough to answer, but decided he had no choice but to go under the knife.

When he left the hospital he was without a headache for the first time in 20 years, but he felt like he was missing an important part of himself. As he walked down the street, he realized that he felt like a different person. He could make a new beginning and live a new life. He saw a men's clothing store & thought, "That's what I need - a new suit."

He entered the shop and told the salesman, "I'd like a new suit." The elderly tailor eyed him briefly and said, "Let's see ... size 44 long." Joe laughed, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years!" Joe tried on the suit. It fit perfectly.

As Joe admired himself in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about a new shirt?" Joe thought for a moment and then said, "Sure." The salesman eyed Joe and said, "Let's see, 34 sleeve & 16-1/2 neck." Again, Joe was surprised, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years!"

Joe tried on the shirt, and it fit perfectly. As Joe adjusted the collar in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about new shoes?" Joe was on a roll and said, "Sure." The salesman eyed Joe's feet and said, "Let's see ... 9-1/2 E." Joe was astonished, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years!"

Joe tried on the shoes and they fit perfectly. Joe walked comfortably around the shop and the salesman asked, "How about some new underwear?" Joe thought for a second and said, "Sure." The salesman stepped back, eyed Joe's waist and said, "Let's see... size 36."

Joe laughed. "Ah ha! I got you! I've worn size 34 since I was 18 years old." The salesman shook his head, "You can't wear a size 34. A size 34 underwear would press your testicles up against the base of your spine and give you one hell of a headache.
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alvin7379
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:53 pm

Aiyo... I read until I oso headache... but I am very sure its nothing to do with my underwear...

Someone who just started golf ask a simple question, without much details for us to conclude on anything... you all just blow it out of proportion. If I am the thread starter, see all these replies I oso scared...

Chill people... to fit or not to fit... I think the TS is old enough to gauge for himself... just make your way down to any of the reputed fitters... may it be BFG or Sigma or anywhere else... go with an open mind. Listen to what the fitters have to say... try out a demo club if available.

Take a fitted club out for a few range/ green and FEEL for yourself...

Then ask yourself if its helping you... full stop loh...

Nowadays, GOOD fitters will offer no obligation analysis, just ask nicely. You will find it more fruitful than reading some of the contents in this thread...
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:55 pm

jeffman88 wrote:
pushslice wrote:
omg...how much of this theory will help you in the game...I assume most of you are weekend golfers not club fitting theorist Laughing

reminds me of this oldie: rendeer

The doctor said, "Joe, the good news is I can cure your headaches. The bad news is that it will require castration. You have a very rare condition, which causes your testicles to press on your spine, and the pressure creates one hell of a headache. The only way to relieve the pressure is to remove the testicles."

Joe was shocked and depressed. He wondered if he had anything to live for. He couldn't concentrate long enough to answer, but decided he had no choice but to go under the knife.

When he left the hospital he was without a headache for the first time in 20 years, but he felt like he was missing an important part of himself. As he walked down the street, he realized that he felt like a different person. He could make a new beginning and live a new life. He saw a men's clothing store & thought, "That's what I need - a new suit."

He entered the shop and told the salesman, "I'd like a new suit." The elderly tailor eyed him briefly and said, "Let's see ... size 44 long." Joe laughed, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years!" Joe tried on the suit. It fit perfectly.

As Joe admired himself in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about a new shirt?" Joe thought for a moment and then said, "Sure." The salesman eyed Joe and said, "Let's see, 34 sleeve & 16-1/2 neck." Again, Joe was surprised, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years!"

Joe tried on the shirt, and it fit perfectly. As Joe adjusted the collar in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about new shoes?" Joe was on a roll and said, "Sure." The salesman eyed Joe's feet and said, "Let's see ... 9-1/2 E." Joe was astonished, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business 60 years!"

Joe tried on the shoes and they fit perfectly. Joe walked comfortably around the shop and the salesman asked, "How about some new underwear?" Joe thought for a second and said, "Sure." The salesman stepped back, eyed Joe's waist and said, "Let's see... size 36."

Joe laughed. "Ah ha! I got you! I've worn size 34 since I was 18 years old." The salesman shook his head, "You can't wear a size 34. A size 34 underwear would press your testicles up against the base of your spine and give you one hell of a headache.

Your joke brings up a good point my friend which is contradicting yourself.

Fitting grips is by experience just like the salesman and not reading up a 1000 page book on ergonomics.

I am not disputing the importance of ergonomics but it is taken are by manufacturers. We do not need a cert to fit our car seats. Manufacturers did tht and we adjust the incline, distance from steering, mirrors etc to fit us.

Our car instructors do not need ergonomic cert to say you are sitting too upright, hands too close to steering wheels etc.

Likewise for clubfitters. Experience, results from the ball flight, comfort of the golfers etc are important. They are clubfitters, not designers. Such knowledge while good to have is not critical to their success just like your salesman joke/example

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:12 pm

takes both hands to clap my fren.. we need both theory and experience lah... how much of each is why there are another million shades of grey.... always need to look at things wholistically... both the processs and the results to gain progress...

"Experience without theory is blind but theory without experience is mere intellectual play... by Immanuel Kant
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:24 pm

I am in fact looking at things holistically. In economics, it is called trade off. I just think that going so much in depth in ergonomics to fit grip size is really overkill and not worth the trade off for marginal or even non-existent result. Wouldn't it be more worthwhile for them to learn more specific techniques of fitting instead that can see more result?

Optimise the bottleneck and not boil the ocean.

Think I said enough and shall not continue in this debate

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:49 pm

sunny wrote:
I am in fact looking at things holistically. In economics, it is called trade off. I just think that going so much in depth in ergonomics to fit grip size is really overkill and not worth the trade off for marginal or even non-existent result. Wouldn't it be more worthwhile for them to learn more specific techniques of fitting instead that can see more result?

Optimise the bottleneck and not boil the ocean.

Think I said enough and shall not continue in this debate

Thanks for the debate and i oso wish to end off.. totally agree that "going so much in depth in ergonomics to fit grip size is really overkill and not worth the trade off for marginal or even non-existent result" but actually it was you who initially brought in the example of grip size n I merely used it as an example or case in point to discuss the issue. Agree there will always be too many topics to include into the "ideal" training curriculum of a golf fitter... I merely suggested in my first posting directed to DGman that perhaps ergonomics was an area that could be considered in the hope that fitters with an enhanced knowledge of golf-related ergonomics can further help fitted golfers prevent further golf related injuries in fitting ALL golf equipment and not merely only grips as per example we discussed ..
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:00 pm

aling wrote:
at the range:
on a good day, i hit 150m.
on a bad day, i roll the ball 5m.
even in flight, the ball will go left or right, up or down.
does club fitting remedy the inconsistency problem?



Hi,
You won't get the answer here but you better proof it yourself. To understand how is fitting gonna help you, just do your putter fitting, I am very sure you have decent "repeatable" putter "swing". Smile
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:19 pm

No disputes...just dam long winded. The right message also need to be conveyed in a manner that won't lose the audience.
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:58 am

Moderated.

Please stay on topic

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PostSubject: Re: can you fix inconsistencies with club fitting?   Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:53 am

mUAr_cHEe wrote:
siaokao wrote:
Perhaps some shallow cups are already full? What a Face

A wise man once told me with regards to shallow cups...


"What cannot fit into the mouth just goes to waste."
i've heard this before.
but i doubt i'd use the word wise on him.
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