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 Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts

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asahi
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PostSubject: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:03 pm

Useful reading.

http://www.golfwrx.com/55733/wishon-facts-about-what-shafts-what-shafts-do-and-who-they-do-it-for/


Especially like this statement;

"Shafts are dumb animals. They only do what their owner’s swing forces them to do."
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:31 pm

its true that the shaft does what the golfer holding the shaft makes it do. thats why its so difficult to buy a game.

however the right shaft does contribute to making the player at the end create the desired action. humans are not robots and they rely on certain feedback to complete the action after the takeaway. in years of analysing and working with players on fittings, we have learned a lot in terms of helping golfers discover what works for them.

like i say time and time again, some shafts are easier to train your reaction and some are tougher. a mid kick is easier to master and once you get the total weight, MOI ratio to swing weight, length and flex figured out, the rest is pretty straight forward.

good read and great insight coming from TW.

DGman
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BabyCroc
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:37 pm

Nice read for a shaft slut - like me, lol
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:11 pm

Croc, have you read the part 1 & 2 yet?
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BabyCroc
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:23 pm

pushslice wrote:
Croc, have you read the part 1 & 2 yet?

Haven yet lei.. Y lei bro?
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:24 pm

The linked article above is part 3...there's more before it. Fun for shaft sluts
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BabyCroc
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:27 pm

Yeapz....I'm searching for it to read now on wrx. Some parts I had to read twice and over to picture the understanding in my mind. Really interesting. Now I know the possible reasons for my ballooning drives with excessive spin
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:54 pm

HI asahi.
sorry i am not trying to be rude.
what else would u said is a dumb animals on a golf clubs??
or a thing is a dumb animal??

I think more things or a it is quite dumb untill u choose the right one then it bcomes quite smart and listen to the owner.

Feel free to ask me anything if there is good or not so good stuffs about stuffs on Tom Wishon. sometimes i do disagree with him even i was his student in the late 90,s

Thanks mate

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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:12 pm

Hi eric

When u say mid-kick is easier to master, you are comparing against low or high kickpoint?

will there be aspects of the swing which may have to change or to take note of when switching from low kick to a mid kick shaft?

Thanks.



DGman wrote:
its true that the shaft does what the golfer holding the shaft makes it do. thats why its so difficult to buy a game.

however the right shaft does contribute to making the player at the end create the desired action. humans are not robots and they rely on certain feedback to complete the action after the takeaway. in years of analysing and working with players on fittings, we have learned a lot in terms of helping golfers discover what works for them.

like i say time and time again, some shafts are easier to train your reaction and some are tougher. a mid kick is easier to master and once you get the total weight, MOI ratio to swing weight, length and flex figured out, the rest is pretty straight forward.

good read and great insight coming from TW.

DGman
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enwee
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:34 pm

1 qns, when the manufacturer said mid kick shaft, do they all have a certain standard of how mid is mid, will one mid kick be lower/higher than another?
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asahi
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:42 pm

jloo61 wrote:
HI asahi.
sorry i am not trying to be rude.
what else would u said is a dumb animals on a golf clubs??
or a thing is a dumb animal??

I think more things or a it is quite dumb untill u choose the right one then it bcomes quite smart and listen to the owner.

Feel free to ask me anything if there is good or not so good stuffs about stuffs on Tom Wishon. sometimes i do disagree with him even i was his student in the late 90,s

Thanks mate


Allo! Dun quite understand your English.

Anyway, please do not quote me as saying that phrase. It was Tom Wishon who said that and I found it interesting, that's all.
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:12 am

DiVoTion wrote:
Hi eric

When u say mid-kick is easier to master, you are comparing against low or high kickpoint?

will there be aspects of the swing which may have to change or to take note of when switching from low kick to a mid kick shaft?

Thanks.

if you can, imagine there are 2 golfers hitting their drives in front of you.

Golfer One cocks early, which means he has to use quite a bit of hands and accelerated body turn at impact. on occasions, he might even feet might even lift off the ground at impact.

Golfer Two has more shoulder rotation and might appear that he swings with both hands at impact. to the untrained eyes he seems to be dancing with his driver while his eyes fixed on the target.

can you guess which shafts will suit which individual and then you will understand why i say the mid kick is easier to master.

Hope it helps.......DGman

TW is to be respected for his views and his vision and brand that challenges the giant brands. the golfers in US and Asia are trained differently and Asian do use the hands alot more than they use body. thats also the reason why Asian golf professionals have better short game. i once stood in between Suzanne Petersson and Cristie Kerr on the chipping green and they are so mechanical compared to the Thais or the Koreans.
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DiVoTion
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:23 am

Eric, thanks for this.

Meaning those with more violent transition will do better with shafts with mid or even high kickpoint because of the inconcistencies with timing....?


DGman wrote:
DiVoTion wrote:
Hi eric

When u say mid-kick is easier to master, you are comparing against low or high kickpoint?

will there be aspects of the swing which may have to change or to take note of when switching from low kick to a mid kick shaft?

Thanks.

if you can, imagine there are 2 golfers hitting their drives in front of you.

Golfer One cocks early, which means he has to use quite a bit of hands and accelerated body turn at impact. on occasions, he might even feet might even lift off the ground at impact.

Golfer Two has more shoulder rotation and might appear that he swings with both hands at impact. to the untrained eyes he seems to be dancing with his driver while his eyes fixed on the target.

can you guess which shafts will suit which individual and then you will understand why i say the mid kick is easier to master.

Hope it helps.......DGman

TW is to be respected for his views and his vision and brand that challenges the giant brands. the golfers in US and Asia are trained differently and Asian do use the hands alot more than they use body. thats also the reason why Asian golf professionals have better short game. i once stood in between Suzanne Petersson and Cristie Kerr on the chipping green and they are so mechanical compared to the Thais or the Koreans.
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:40 am

just a rule of thumb, but one needs to see the entire swing to make the necessary recommendations....but your deduction is good.... Very Happy
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:43 am

Read parts of the article, only understood the line below..

"As always, the very best way to be fit to the best shaft for your swing and for your shot shape requirements is to find a good clubmaker."

but i got one question, do we train (swing) for the shaft or the shaft 'train' (fit) our swing cause few of us get fitted before our training and by the time we actual do get fitted, we would have developed our swing to suit the old set. Some old sets even have negative bounce (like my 1st hand me down set) and some have hybrid like head all the way to SW (like my current hand me down set).

another question, does the shaft differ when using different heads (why the hybrid shaft and equivalent iron shaft is different, why ppl can suddenly transit from a steel shaft to a graphite shaft hybrid, or from a steel shaft 48 wedge to a graphite shaft PW)
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asahi
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:48 am

[quote="DGman"]
DiVoTion wrote:
. i once stood in between Suzanne Petersson and Cristie Kerr on the chipping green and they are so mechanical compared to the Thais or the Koreans.

Agreed! Few times, I stood behind the LPGA golfers to observe their short game; the Europeans are so robotic and mechanical whereas the Asians have more finese to their craft.

Also, Asian LPGA golfers rock! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:03 am

asahi wrote:

Agreed! Few times, I stood behind the LPGA golfers to observe their short game; the Europeans are so robotic and mechanical whereas the Asians have more finese to their craft.

Also, Asian LPGA golfers rock! Very Happy
Finesse or not? End result whether ball goes in the hole, more important..
I would imagine the Europeans to be more 'creative' rather than the Americans who seem to favor a cookie cutter type swing depending on the flavor of the month?
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:04 am

a proper fitting is about percentages....not the best shot but lowering the percentage of bad shots. in controlled environment most golfers who are rather proficient are able to execute a shot but it does not mean they will be able to repeat that on the course.

in most cases, golfers think they are robots and can repeat the same action. in reality it does not happen. even the best in the world cannot achieve 14/14 fw so what chance does most amateurs have?

last but not least, the buzzword for golfers coming for swing anlaysis is always, what's the spin? spin is imparted by an action than cause the club head to cut, pull, deloft or add loft at impact. its too common to find someone who can hit a drive 2500 rpm and the next one 4000.

hence training yourself to adapt to a shaft that delivers higher percentage should be the goal. a good club fitter should be able to explain to you what cause errand shots and where you fail. if its all the time, then the shaft is obviously not suitable.

on wedges, it usually does a different function and require one to handle the club different. hence total weight and shaft characteristic are major considerations.


hope it helps......DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:13 am

DGman wrote:
a proper fitting is about percentages....not the best shot but lowering the percentage of bad shots. in controlled environment most golfers who are rather proficient are able to execute a shot but it does not mean they will be able to repeat that on the course.

in most cases, golfers think they are robots and can repeat the same action. in reality it does not happen. even the best in the world cannot achieve 14/14 fw so what chance does most amateurs have?

last but not least, the buzzword for golfers coming for swing anlaysis is always, what's the spin? spin is imparted by an action than cause the club head to cut, pull, deloft or add loft at impact. its too common to find someone who can hit a drive 2500 rpm and the next one 4000.

hence training yourself to adapt to a shaft that delivers higher percentage should be the goal. a good club fitter should be able to explain to you what cause errand shots and where you fail. if its all the time, then the shaft is obviously not suitable.

on wedges, it usually does a different function and require one to handle the club different. hence total weight and shaft characteristic are major considerations.

hope it helps......DGman

Personally agreed! Very Happy
+1
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:21 am

Apologies first for going slight OT here, but since there are 2 qualified club fitters in this thread whom I know personally, DGman and Jloo, this might be the best place to ask this.

Question: If I wanted to cut 1.5 - 2 inches off my driver shaft, what is the difference between taking it off the butt end and taking it off the tip end?

I am referring to the stock 39g S Miyasaki Shaft that comes with the Cleveland CG Black

Thanks guys!

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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:51 pm

Digging up an old post here, but have to say it's one of the most useful post I came across with ( having read the link to Tom's post). Been tinkering with the idea of upgrading my driver shaft but its under the then faults impression that a branded shaft upgrade is a 'simple fix' to get more ball speed (and hence longer drivers). The comment saying "...Golfers who unhinge the wrist cock early to midway in the downswing do NOT experience a difference in launch angle, trajectory or backspin from shafts of different flex and different bend profile..." is an important revelation for me.

Looks like there is no quick equipment fix to longer distance.
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:23 pm

Derek wrote:
Apologies first for going slight OT here, but since there are 2 qualified club fitters in this thread whom I know personally, DGman and Jloo, this might be the best place to ask this.

Question: If I wanted to cut 1.5 - 2 inches off my driver shaft, what is the difference between taking it off the butt end and taking it off the tip end?

I am referring to the stock 39g S Miyasaki Shaft that comes with the Cleveland CG Black

Thanks guys!

when you take it off the back, technically the shaft will still register the same cpm...straight line. but it will feel stiffer cos its shorten.

if you take it off the tip, it will play stiffer (actual cpm) and feel even stiffer cos its shorten.

Tom Wishon recently reported on his findings that adjustable hosel for 4 brands -

• Taylor Made R1
• Nike Covert
• Ping Anser - 10.5
• Titleist 913D2 - 10.5

it appears in his report that very insignificant changes to loft and lie can be achieve using adjustable adaptors. brave report and hold a lot of truth too.

if you want the report, please PM me.

thanks....DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:35 pm

I have a newbie question here... always felt that I should have my driver fitted but been holding back because I do not know what to expect in terms of pricing... What kind of price range should I expect to get fitted for a decent shaft?
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:17 pm

marmarchen wrote:
I have a newbie question here... always felt that I should have my driver fitted but been holding back because I do not know what to expect in terms of pricing... What kind of price range should I expect to get fitted for a decent shaft?
Why don't you go down to visit them and find out?
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asahi
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PostSubject: Re: Tom Wishon - Facts about shafts   Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:31 pm

Take the plunge and visit the clubfitters!
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