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 Should golf be learnt backwards?

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Derek
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PostSubject: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:18 am

Starting topic with iPad and switching to computer to post

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Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:28 am

I have always wondered what if a new golfer were to learn golf from the hole back? i.e. in the order below

1. Putting
2. Chipping
3. Greenside bunkers
4. Pitching
5. Short Irons
6. Mid Irons / Hybrids
7. Tee Off Shots (Driver / FW / Hybrid)
8. Long Irons / Hybrids / Fairway woods (off the deck)

Would he or she progress faster than trying to learn the game from the tee forwards? (which is what i think a lot of beginner golfers are trying to do, consciously or subconciously, even if their coaches are advising them otherwise)

Comments?

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What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
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eggyolk
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:54 am

I vaguely recall, the gary player golf academy that used to be at jcc was doing that. One of my friends took lessons there and he mentioned something about learning the easier "swings" like putting before progressing to the difficult full swing. Something like learning how to walk before learning how to run. That was many years ago, I may have remembered wrongly.
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zakevich
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:55 am

i think this way of training is good for adolescent starting at a young young age.
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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:06 pm

zakevich wrote:
i think this way of training is good for adolescent starting at a young young age.

Hi Zakevich, apologies if I misunderstood you, but do you feel that such an approach would not be as suitable for an adult picking up the game?

_________________
========================================
What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
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zakevich
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:09 pm

Derek wrote:
zakevich wrote:
i think this way of training is good for adolescent starting at a young young age.

Hi Zakevich, apologies if I misunderstood you, but do you feel that such an approach would not be as suitable for an adult picking up the game?

It still works for adult but I find it more appropriate for toddlers who are still developing the muscle and are not able to handle a full swing properly and consistently.

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billi
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:42 pm

zakevich wrote:
Derek wrote:
zakevich wrote:
i think this way of training is good for adolescent starting at a young young age.

Hi Zakevich, apologies if I misunderstood you, but do you feel that such an approach would not be as suitable for an adult picking up the game?

It still works for adult but I find it more appropriate for toddlers who are still developing the muscle and are not able to handle a full swing properly and consistently.


I think its work and better.,for a start. Base on a average 24 hcp
Putter ;We putter ard 38 to 45 time per round. Is abt half of the game.
Driver :We onli max use 14 times per round for driver, yet we focus more.
Mid iron : around 20 times
Hybrid/wood : 4 times
Sand : 5 to 8 times
Short game : 10 times
I may be wrong. No offends

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93vtec
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:59 pm

Maybe some students may not think it would be value for money if they are doing putting and chipping for first 2 lessons.

But, this might work!
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EastCoastHack
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:13 pm

I still suck at golf (PC holder collecting scorecards) so take my own experience with a pinch. But here you go:

I started learning golf July 2012. My enthusiasm coupled with living a five minute walk from the driving range was a bad mix with my physical shape and age. I practiced too much and the wrong way. Three weeks into my learning experience I badly strained some intercostal muscles. The doctor told me not to swing a club for three months .

But he had some interesting advice... "Practice your short game instead. You will be a better golfer overall for it."

So three months of putting and chipping followed. An hour a day 3-4 days a week at the range near my house, and some weekend mornings I'd pay the $10 MBGC charges to practice my lag putting on their bigger greens.

The Intercostals eventually got better and I moved to pitching and full iron shots. I started playing at the NSRCC Par 3 with the objective of playing at least bogey on every hole before I moved to the "big" course. My first three games at MBGC were played without a driver and FW... my 3H was my longest club.

I swung a driver for the first time... two weeks ago. That is roughly eight months after I started. I am still learning and still spend 2/3rds of my time on my short game. I also still manage to injure myself occasionally (though not as bad as last year) so I'm learning much about the right and wrong ways to excersise and practice. Did some damage crunching abs last week so I'm off the course and back in putting and chipping mode for a while. So be it. I'll be a better golfer overall for it, right?

I'll revisit this thread in July... one year after I started learning this amazing game. If I'm regularly playing in the 90s by then, maybe there is something to learning golf backwards Wink.

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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:33 pm

I have seen many not so skilled golfers practising and for the large majority, they are making full swings (or swing at 100% or in some cases more) with most of the balls.

Also, most of the time, they are making poor contact (let's not even consider direction for now), and mostly fat (hitting behind the ball) and up to 3 or 4 inches behind the ball.

I observe them going through a whole bucket of balls and can only hear solid contact occasionally and almost never twice in a row. I can only conclude then even when they do it right, they don't know what they are doing right, so it is almost impossible to repeat.

For those that strike up a conversation with me (I never offer unsolicited advice), I normally ask them a bit more about their game, and more often than not, they are very poor at pitching as well (those that play more regularly seem to know what to do when they are around the fringe, but 30m - 80m is where they feel they are very inconsistent).

So when I ask them to try a couple of pitches to various targets at various distances, usually the same flaws show up as in the full swing, the result? ... the same fat shots. Which you can get away with when striking off a driving range mat but not on the course (or god forbid, a fairway bunker)

Food for thought, if you can't achieve good and consistent contact when pitching, i.e. making a limited swing, be it half, 3-quarter, 80% etc etc, it probably means you don't know how to move the club in a smooth and efficient manner to achieve the result you want.

If you don't know how to move the club efficiently, how can increasing the size and effort by making a larger swing help you to learn how to move the club efficiently?

Notice I say effort not speed, largely because:

1) If you don't know the proper way to accelerate a golf clubhead, increasing the amount of strength and effort in the wrong way will probably slow your swing down

2) Even if you manage to achieve a real increase in club speed, striking the mat or ground first is going to send all that energy into the ground, not into the ball, resulting in inconsistent ball speed and irregular distance.

Now, don't get me wrong by thinking I am advocating slowing down the swing to achieve good contact. There are few things worse for ball striking than decelerating the club coming into impact.

What I am suggesting is that by learning how to pitch properly, aside from the immediate benefit of scoring better, it is also likely that your full swing will improve as well.

And as for the correct pitching technique, instead of trying to learn it off the internet or magazines, I would strongly suggest you take a 90min (or 120min) lesson with your local PGA professional to learn a fundamentally correct way to do this.

So just wondering, do you guys think that improving your pitching can help you make better full swings?

_________________
========================================
What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:45 pm

Derek wrote:
I have seen many not so skilled golfers practising and for the large majority, they are making full swings (or swing at 100% or in some cases more) with most of the balls.

Also, most of the time, they are making poor contact (let's not even consider direction for now), and mostly fat (hitting behind the ball) and up to 3 or 4 inches behind the ball.

I observe them going through a whole bucket of balls and can only hear solid contact occasionally and almost never twice in a row. I can only conclude then even when they do it right, they don't know what they are doing right, so it is almost impossible to repeat.

For those that strike up a conversation with me (I never offer unsolicited advice), I normally ask them a bit more about their game, and more often than not, they are very poor at pitching as well (those that play more regularly seem to know what to do when they are around the fringe, but 30m - 80m is where they feel they are very inconsistent).

So when I ask them to try a couple of pitches to various targets at various distances, usually the same flaws show up as in the full swing, the result? ... the same fat shots. Which you can get away with when striking off a driving range mat but not on the course (or god forbid, a fairway bunker)

Food for thought, if you can't achieve good and consistent contact when pitching, i.e. making a limited swing, be it half, 3-quarter, 80% etc etc, it probably means you don't know how to move the club in a smooth and efficient manner to achieve the result you want.

If you don't know how to move the club efficiently, how can increasing the size and effort by making a larger swing help you to learn how to move the club efficiently?

Notice I say effort not speed, largely because:

1) If you don't know the proper way to accelerate a golf clubhead, increasing the amount of strength and effort in the wrong way will probably slow your swing down

2) Even if you manage to achieve a real increase in club speed, striking the mat or ground first is going to send all that energy into the ground, not into the ball, resulting in inconsistent ball speed and irregular distance.

Now, don't get me wrong by thinking I am advocating slowing down the swing to achieve good contact. There are few things worse for ball striking than decelerating the club coming into impact.

What I am suggesting is that by learning how to pitch properly, aside from the immediate benefit of scoring better, it is also likely that your full swing will improve as well.

And as for the correct pitching technique, instead of trying to learn it off the internet or magazines, I would strongly suggest you take a 90min (or 120min) lesson with your local PGA professional to learn a fundamentally correct way to do this.

So just wondering, do you guys think that improving your pitching can help you make better full swings?



Can I sign u up for lessons??!!

I got a good feeling I will be an awesome golfer under your instruction....

Your truly..... Hopeless golfer
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billi
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:58 pm

slinger wrote:
Derek wrote:
I have seen many not so skilled golfers practising and for the large majority, they are making full swings (or swing at 100% or in some cases more) with most of the balls.

Also, most of the time, they are making poor contact (let's not even consider direction for now), and mostly fat (hitting behind the ball) and up to 3 or 4 inches behind the ball.

I observe them going through a whole bucket of balls and can only hear solid contact occasionally and almost never twice in a row. I can only conclude then even when they do it right, they don't know what they are doing right, so it is almost impossible to repeat.

For those that strike up a conversation with me (I never offer unsolicited advice), I normally ask them a bit more about their game, and more often than not, they are very poor at pitching as well (those that play more regularly seem to know what to do when they are around the fringe, but 30m - 80m is where they feel they are very inconsistent).

So when I ask them to try a couple of pitches to various targets at various distances, usually the same flaws show up as in the full swing, the result? ... the same fat shots. Which you can get away with when striking off a driving range mat but not on the course (or god forbid, a fairway bunker)

Food for thought, if you can't achieve good and consistent contact when pitching, i.e. making a limited swing, be it half, 3-quarter, 80% etc etc, it probably means you don't know how to move the club in a smooth and efficient manner to achieve the result you want.

If you don't know how to move the club efficiently, how can increasing the size and effort by making a larger swing help you to learn how to move the club efficiently?

Notice I say effort not speed, largely because:

1) If you don't know the proper way to accelerate a golf clubhead, increasing the amount of strength and effort in the wrong way will probably slow your swing down

2) Even if you manage to achieve a real increase in club speed, striking the mat or ground first is going to send all that energy into the ground, not into the ball, resulting in inconsistent ball speed and irregular distance.

Now, don't get me wrong by thinking I am advocating slowing down the swing to achieve good contact. There are few things worse for ball striking than decelerating the club coming into impact.

What I am suggesting is that by learning how to pitch properly, aside from the immediate benefit of scoring better, it is also likely that your full swing will improve as well.

And as for the correct pitching technique, instead of trying to learn it off the internet or magazines, I would strongly suggest you take a 90min (or 120min) lesson with your local PGA professional to learn a fundamentally correct way to do this.

So just wondering, do you guys think that improving your pitching can help you make better full swings?



Can I sign u up for lessons??!!

I got a good feeling I will be an awesome golfer under your instruction....

Your truly..... Hopeless golfer


You are sifu .
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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:00 pm

To the ksls NSRCC 18 ...

Sure! I can guarantee instant results for you ...

First step ... change ur irons to baby blades and stick 135gm X flex shafts on them

then replace ur xhots with persimmon woods and FINALLY ... stick 2 coins, 1 each under the left and right armpit and make sure that you make all swings without letting the coins drop

ok?

p.s. Your normal golfing buddies are so hoping you will adopt these changes that they have agreed to pay me on your behalf ...

Beer

_________________
========================================
What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
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zakevich
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:24 pm

Derek wrote:
To the ksls NSRCC 18 ...

Sure! I can guarantee instant results for you ...

First step ... change ur irons to baby blades and stick 135gm X flex shafts on them

then replace ur xhots with persimmon woods and FINALLY ... stick 2 coins, 1 each under the left and right armpit and make sure that you make all swings without letting the coins drop

ok?

p.s. Your normal golfing buddies are so hoping you will adopt these changes that they have agreed to pay me on your behalf ...

Beer

The 2 coins under each armpit is a good method. I use the hybrid covers instead of coins to change my own swing.
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:30 pm

Derek wrote:


p.s. Your normal golfing buddies are so hoping you will adopt these changes that they have agreed to pay me on your behalf ...

Beer



who who??

i better give them a call......N B




anyway back to topics...

i am bringing my 6 yr old to the putting green twr morning...

she's been there once a month oreadi...

no range lesson yet, just putting...

sink 5 consecutive holes, she got a Happy Meal from me...

she is very motivated!!!
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haragolfer
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:47 pm

in the book about tiger Woods. it is quite famously mentioned that golf was taught to litttle tiger . green to tee.
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crayon33
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:41 pm

U guys know about the dan plan? Dan is a guy who at age 30 decided he wanted to be a pro golfer. He quit his job n then started training. He figured he will need 10000 hours of deliberate practice to be a good player. Anyways he started doing nothing but putting and chipping. You can go to his website and see his blog about the tournaments he has played. If he succeeds I am going to make my son do 200 putts everynight before he sleeps.
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Cyrano
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:51 pm

i think the way we have been doing is the backwards way.. the green to tee way is the correct way.. hehehehe
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:32 pm

Well, golf spelt backwards is flog... and in all honesty, that's what happens to me for most games. So, I've kinda learned the sport backwards.

Don't mind me, I've had a beer... and then some.

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Golf noob
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:43 pm

crayon33 wrote:
U guys know about the dan plan? Dan is a guy who at age 30 decided he wanted to be a pro golfer. He quit his job n then started training. He figured he will need 10000 hours of deliberate practice to be a good player. Anyways he started doing nothing but putting and chipping. You can go to his website and see his blog about the tournaments he has played. If he succeeds I am going to make my son do 200 putts everynight before he sleeps.


lol!
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Derek
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:42 pm

haragolfer wrote:
in the book about tiger Woods. it is quite famously mentioned that golf was taught to litttle tiger . green to tee.

Never knew that ...

Think everyone agrees kids should learn this way, but how many of you think adults should learn this way as well?

And for those of you who are just picking up the game or not improving, do u think taking an approach like this might help?

_________________
========================================
What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:12 pm

If I can start all over again, I would learn chipping and pitching first. Train the hands for proper impact position first. Before I start adding power, more back swing and use longer, tougher to hit clubs. Walk before I run.
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9points
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:26 pm

Derek, thank you for having the thought to start this topic.

IMHO, the most suitable way to start golf whether it's for kids or adults, it starts from green and move backwards to the tee.

I just personally feel that your full swing is like an extension or full version of putting motion. So, starting from the simplest putting motion and work our way up to the chipping, then pitching and then full swing will be more ideal.

When you do a full-swing move, along the way you will pass through "putting zone", then "chipping zone", then "pitching zone", before you get to the top of your backswing. The few changes you will notice are probably in the setup, the stance and grip. Just my 2cents worth Smile

But then again, there's really no right or wrong here I suppose. I guess at the end of the day it's still down to the individual on why he's picking up golf and what he/she is looking to achieve. If the individual is picking up golf to just to hit the ball as far as he can, then he will probably just keep going at the full-swing part.
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:31 pm

Derek wrote:

So just wondering, do you guys think that improving your pitching can help you make better full swings?

Did not want this thread to die so let's take it from there. If you are into books, Pelz, Utley, and Mickelson seem to be the published short game guys, but they are very, very different in their approach. The "Dead V" of Pelz is a different style than the "whack to compress style" of Phil. From my extreme beginner eyes, Utley seems somewhere in between but I'm open to someone telling me otherwise. All wrist/No wrist. Dead lower body/Active lower body. Good golfers with differing views. It does my head in!

Maybe I'm deviating from what Derek intended with this thread, but here you go: My "P" iron is 44 degrees. That is my 100 yard iron. Below that I'm using wedges and my full shots are roughly 90/75/60 yards with 48/53/58 degree wedges respectively. Sorry to talk yards but I grew up with yards for golf and it is taking some time to get over it.

My mission continues to be being better than my peers at that 60 yards and in.

Putting. I think I know how to practice that.

Chipping. I think I'm good at it. But I'm not confident I'm doing it the best way. There is room to grow/cut strokes from my game here.

Pitching. Right now... this is my grey area. I alternate between shots you would see on the Golf Channel and shots you would see on the Three Stooges. Brilliance to stupidity in one round... often on the same hole!

Will improving my pitching make my full swings better? It is a school night so I have to stop here for now. Thoughts?











Last edited by EastCoastHack on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Should golf be learnt backwards?   Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:31 pm

Found the dead wrist method reliable and low maintenance. Coach Justin fixed my duffing in 10 mins by removing my own faulty wrist cock. Im a fan of Steve Stricker too.
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