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 What's my penalty?

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Khorkar
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PostSubject: What's my penalty?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:27 pm

Hi,

I have 2 scenarios and I need advice on Penalties for Match and Stroke Play:

Scenario 1:
Player John Doe tees off and ball landed in the center of a bunker.  He proceed to bunker and perform 2 practice swing.  During both practice swing, his club touches the unmaintained scrubs of 6-10 inches height inside the bunker itself (and not in the greens).  After he performs the practice his 2 swings, he then proceed to execute the stroke.  Was there any penalty incurred?  What is the penalty in Stroke and match play?

Scenario 2
Player Jim tees off and ball slices to the forest.  Concerned that his may have been  lost in bushes and he declared that he will hit a provision ball.  He then proceed to hit the balls and ball lands in a left bunker (after everyone has taken their turn to tee off).  Player Roberto, tees off and potentially may end up in left bunker as he pull his shot. 
- Robert0 walk into the left and note there is ball there, didnt check if was his ball and proceed to hit his second shot
- During which Jim has successfully found 1st his ball and proceed to take his 2nd shot on the 1st ball.  He then proceed to recover his provision ball.  However, he notice that it is missing in the bunker
- Robert0 was asked if he has hit the wrong ball.  Roberto checked his 2nd shot and confirmed that he has taken the wrong ball.

What is the penalty for stroke and match play? Roberto lost the hole in match play and -2 in stroke play?


Last edited by Khorkar on Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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peter.golfer
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:53 pm

Scenario 1
13-4 Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions


 PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.


So, john lost the hole in match play or incurred 4 strokes penalty
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peter.golfer
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:59 pm

Scenario 2
15-3 Wrong Ball
Yes, he lost the hole in match play or incurred 2 strokes penalty in stroke play
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:00 am

peter.golfer wrote:
Scenario 1
13-4 Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions


 PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.


So, john lost the hole in match play or incurred 4 strokes penalty

Peter.golfer,

Thanks for replying. Why 4 strokes and not 2 only?  Were the 2nd practice that touches the scrubs counted?
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Gofnut
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:53 pm

Scenario 1 : I am wondering if the scrubs in the bunder is considered part of the bunker. Some bunkers have an island of grass within it and is not part of the bunker and you are allowed to ground your club on the grass island. Thus if the scrubs are that long, there may be a case to argue that they do not form part of the bunker and thus no penalty if your club touches the scrub during practice swing. Hope somebody can clarify further.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:00 pm

Most bunkers that have scrub in them are deemed waste bunkers in which grounding of the club is allowed.  It should be on the local rules part of the scorecard.
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:04 pm

Khorkar wrote:
peter.golfer wrote:
Scenario 1
13-4 Ball in Hazard; Prohibited Actions


 PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.


So, john lost the hole in match play or incurred 4 strokes penalty

Peter.golfer,

Thanks for replying. Why 4 strokes and not 2 only?  Were the 2nd practice that touches the scrubs counted?

Within the contex of your question, both practice swings are counted as having broken the rules, thus 4 stroke penalty.
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Sandypar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:19 pm

If i take scrubs to mean unkempt long grass,

 No, there is no penalty under scenario 1. 

Rule 13-4 states that
 A.you must not touch the ground with your hands or club
 B. you must not touch or move any loose impediments lying in the hazard.
 C. test condition of the hazard

Loose impediments are further defined by natural objects provided they are
not fixed , growing,solidly embedded.

So if you take a practice swing in a hazard and touch some tall grass growing there, there is no penalty.... as long as your club does not touch the ground or any impediments in there.
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Artloh
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:32 pm

Please allow me to clarify.

Scenario 1. Firstly the margins of the bunker extends only downwards not upwards. Decision 13/2 explains. Therefore there is no penalty.

 Scenario 2. It's a 2 stroke penalty provided he goes back finds his ball and plays out the hole before he tees of from the next tee. It's a DQ in stroke play if he doesn't.

Hope this clarifies.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:14 pm

Sandypar wrote:
If i take scrubs to mean unkempt long grass,

 No, there is no penalty under scenario 1. 

Rule 13-4 states that
 A.you must not touch the ground with your hands or club
 B. you must not touch or move any loose impediments lying in the hazard.
 C. test condition of the hazard

Loose impediments are further defined by natural objects provided they are
not fixed , growing,solidly embedded.

So if you take a practice swing in a hazard and touch some tall grass growing there, there is no penalty.... as long as your club does not touch the ground or any impediments in there.

 Sandy,

These are scrubs or few fine grass that were unmaintained in the bunker, its grown in the bunker itself.  Isnt this part of the bunker and therefore cannot be touched?
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Sandypar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:24 pm

from the definition of loose impediments, it would seem that
your club can have contact with the grass as long as it has has no contact with the ground.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:24 pm

New Scenario.

3 players (A, B, C) play their shots to the green. 

- Player A - Shot straight to the apron (20ft away).
- Player B - Shot didn't reach the putting green, abt 40 ft away.
- Player C - Shot landed up slop of the putting, abt 4 ft away.

Player A was kind enough to walk over and help Player C mark his ball as Player B prepares to take his shot.  Shot landed on the green and as Player B walk over toward the green, he notice a ball on apron which doesnt belong to him and he then picks it up.  By that time, Player A came and asked, where is my ball and the ball in Player B's hand.

What is Player B's penalty in Match and Strokes?
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Artloh
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:08 pm

Hi Khorkar,

Is assume the distance was to the pin. The answer would be

Match play, 1 stroke penalty (18-3) & ball replaced.

Stroke play, no penalty, ball replaced (18-4)

Hope this clarifies. Pardon me but I hope you didn't experience this in real life.
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peter.golfer
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:04 am

In real life competition that will never happen. No one will touch other player's ball
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rt
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:12 am

hmm... what's your intention of picking up a ball that does not belong to you and it's so near the green?
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:37 am

RT,

It could another player's spare ball which he could have taken.
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rt
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:50 am

Khorkar wrote:
RT,

It could another player's spare ball which he could have taken.

 it is wise to check with your flight mates first before any action.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:52 am

rt wrote:
Khorkar wrote:
RT,

It could another player's spare ball which he could have taken.

 it is wise to check with your flight mates first before any action.

Regrettably, Yes!  That would be my mistake to assume so.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:46 pm

Artloh wrote:
Hi Khorkar,

Is assume the distance was to the pin. The answer would be

Match play, 1 stroke penalty (18-3) & ball replaced.

Stroke play, no penalty, ball replaced (18-4)

Hope this clarifies. Pardon me but I hope you didn't experience this in real life.

Hi Artloh,

Thanks for yr inputs.  Unfortunately, I did pick up the ball.  Lesson learnt as I thought the person have marked a ball before proceeding to his own ball.  Always checked.

Golf is a never ending lesson in life.  Never assume but ask.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:09 pm

Scenario:  Player A hits a shot and hooked towards the left which has a Lateral water hazard.  Player proceed to check the outcome of his shot.

--------------Pond-----------------
--------------Pond-----------------
------(2)xxxxxxxxx(3)---------------
-----(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)------------
----(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)-----------
---(1)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(4)----------


Where
- is Pond
x is Rough/Fairway

Stake no (2) was removed by previous flite and left on the ground.  It is not planted back to its original position. Player A's ball is located in x where there were loose impediments i.e. mud sludge pulled out during course maintenance.  Is Player A entitled to a relief as per rules 23-1?


Last edited by Khorkar on Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Artloh
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:21 pm

I'd assume that the ball is not in the hazard. The term "lose impediments" does not include mud sludge. The "hazard" stake however is an movable obstruction and if it impedes your swing or stance, it can be move unless stated in the local rules.

Hope this helps.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:45 pm

2 things tho,

A. I am not sure it is in the hazard, technically it is not but the stake (2) is not planted and is just left on the ground.

B. The sludge, mud and grass were dragged from the pond during course maintenance and there is no GUR marked on the area.  Hence, we thought it should be treated as Loose impediments as it is not part of the course.
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Artloh
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:22 pm

A. Where the stake is on the ground is not important if the hazard boundaries are clearly define. So can the spot where the stake was suppose to be visible? By planting the stake back is your ball in the hazard?


B. it's more of a GUR not a loose impediment. However one must be certain that the sludge, mud and grass were left there by the greenkeeper was only temporary and were slated for removal later. 

Hope this helps.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:31 pm

Thks Artloh for reply.

Confirming the answers:

A.  By planting the stake back, the ball is NOT in the hazard.  Therefore, I can safely assume under context of B, it would permit a relief under Rule 23-1.

B.  True, it is more likely a GUR as it is part of the maintenance activity where the nearby pond were being cleared and therefore muds, sludge and grass were pulled out to the greens.
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:24 am

It's not 23-1. It falls under 25-1 provided its certain that the grass cuttings, mud etc there are to be remove by the maintenance staff at a later time and not to be left there permanently.
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PostSubject: Re: What's my penalty?   Today at 6:20 pm

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