Golf Republic Forum - Singapore's most active golfing forum.
 
HomeFAQCalendarRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:42 pm

its increasing important for everyone to understand the D-place and i do not speak from a golf instruction perspective but rather from a club fitter's perspective.

Just fresh from the first Trackman University Workshop in Bangkok and i have this to share...







The presenter is Tom Tontapanish, who is a PGA isntructor in the US. He is now a Trackman instructor in our region and is also the official tour rep on the Asian and Thai tour. Tom speaks excellent English, have taught in the US and he knows the Asian culture very well.



The D-plane explained and illustrated in Trackman readings as well. for club fitters, its important to know why certain characteristics in shaft kick-point and flex will create different spins. For instructors, it will also help them explained why certain movement or drills will help create the "Straight Shot". or for that matter, the baby draw or power fade.

in attendance too is one of my friend and Asia Tour player....do you recognised him?



one of the touring pros attending the workshop.....



its been a long time since i was in a classroom and its fun..some of this information can be very useful for elite players to practice with a purpose and it was reported that Jason Dufner has 2 trackman and he use Trackman Combine a lot in his training rather than hit balls. also all the major winners this year have a trackman as part of their training. they paid for it and are not sponsored. 




probably one of the most important subject.....




while i find the training to be very useful even for someone like me who have used it for 3 plus years now, i am still discovering new usage for this. 

i think the local coaching fraternity, club fitters and the elite golfers will learn a lot if they are given the opportunity to attend a Trackman University Workshop. i have spoken to Tom about bringing TMU to Singapore and he has given us the go ahead to recruit participants. 

All we need is US$262.50 for each participant (we need 10 at least) and Tom will be happy to come to Singapore to conduct a 2 day- talk and demo for club fitters, instructors. it may be cheaper but he needs to get confirmation from Trackman De. 

BFG is only helping TMU in getting this great opportunity to our local golfing community and do not profit in any way. all payments to TMU directly but we are doing the initial seeding to find out if there are enough interested coaches and club fitters out there for us to get Tom to Singapore. of course we still have to look for a location and we can offer the putting area at the Den for classroom if needed.

cheers and you can either PM me or post on this thread if you are interested.

DGman
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
peace2903
Very Active Golfer
Very Active Golfer


Posts : 889
Join date : 2009-07-02

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:18 pm

Alamak! Tot TMU course for layman. Anyway kudos to DGman for sharing. Interesting read for the layman. Kudos also trying to bring TMU course here, definitely give a chance for the fitters & pros to up their std!
Back to top Go down
astroboy888
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 80
Join date : 2013-03-31

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:25 pm

Eric, How much is the whole set up going to set someone back? Does instruction come if someone buys it to use at home as a personal training tool? Maybe I should ask if you know of any golfers in SPore who has one at home. Ha! Ha!
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:16 pm

No pros in Singapore has one for personal use. i know Mardan was offered and playing pros play less than those who use it commercially.

however, Thonghchai and Coconut both have one and they bought it for their own use.

its too ex for layman cos its not just the hardware but the yearly licence. all said and done, its still cheaper than a high end Birkin.....
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
astroboy888
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 80
Join date : 2013-03-31

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:33 pm

Thank you for such a quick answer Eric. I will definitely speak to you about something suitable for my son to practice at home. Maybe you can recommend something more affordable then. 

I find it funny that many golfers can spend a fortune on cars, watches etc, but won't spend on something that can really improve their game.

In two years here in Auckland, I seen only two people wearing Panerai watches. Spore you throw a stone into a crowd, sure hit someone using a brand watch. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:07 pm

first day back after TMU and i am beginning to see different variations on the nos on TM. Great too to have a visit by a very forward-looking teaching professional who came by to discuss the possibilities of offering advance lesson plans and other interesting ways to use Trackman to optimise student's performance....

i have a nice line for you guys....

the video is a great breakthrough for teaching golf, it shows you what the eyes cannot see....

now Trackman shows you what the video cannot see.

DGman

Sidetrack.....

Jonathan, i had a visit from a pretty good golfer today, he loves the Steelfiber and he loves the performance of the BFG on the steelfiber. but he also told me that he do not want people to think that  he is getting old so using graphite is not an option. he also wants to buy a more expensive set of irons because he do not want his friends to think that he is cannot afford a more expensive set.

now i am thinking...

where on the scorecard is the column for 1. Type of shafts used and 2. cost of iron set. and of course the #2 and #3 on fedex cup points must be out of their mind to use steelfiber.....

anyway after he tried all the irons while waiting for his hybrid to be fixed, he walked out with a RC Pro ZX MB with a SF i95 S....which to me is a giant step forward for mankind......
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
astroboy888
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 80
Join date : 2013-03-31

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:33 pm

Eric, I will definitely try out the steelfiber when I get back. Reason I mentioned that I wanted a steel shaft for my fish sticks was because that's what I am used to. Being so far away from you and the Den, I decided to play it safe. 

I reckon that with the level I am right now, the set up you did feels better and better with every game. The irons and wedges are really a pleasure to hit and like what others have commented, they hit further. 

I'm now looking at a flightscope X2 sim setup but not buying until I speak to you. I guess, Luke's development is more important then my Harley Davidson. Told my wife that I'll sacrifice buying the bike if it means Luke can have something at home to practice with and benefit. We'll see how things develop. 

On the part about having to keep up with the Jones's, I'm totally over that. Living in NZ made me realize that you don't need all the flash gear to be happy. 

Thanks again for my great setup!
Back to top Go down
jhan18
Playing Professional
Playing Professional


Posts : 620
Join date : 2009-09-30
Age : 28
Location : Singapore

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:25 am

Great catching up with you yesterday Eric. The Trackman is not only a club fitter's or teaching professional's fitting/teaching device but a powerful educational tool for golfers of all standards.

Over the last few months or so I've been fortunate enough to learn more about ball and club data through the use of a Trackman. It has given me a better understanding of the causes and effects pertaining to a golfer's swing.

I'd like to share an example.
I've had a student come see me for a driver lesson last week. He was struggling to find any sort of consistency with his shots. He went from a 10.5 degree driver to 9 degree driver with a stiffer shaft(ill advised that 10.5 is 'too much loft' and ball slices because 'shaft too soft')
 Though his numbers were very inconsistent(club path, clubface, horizontal swing plane, etc) he hit 7/10 shots severely on the up(angle of attack was more than 5 degrees on most shots)
Now everyone knows we must hit up. In fact some people go the extreme with set up, ball posiiton and swing just to hit 'up' and this could prove detrimental to shot accuracy and consistency.
We worked on getting angle of attack right and clubface square first. On his 2nd shot he struck the ball with an angle of attack of 0.8.His ball went straight with a slight fade but had only a launch of 10.4 degrees, insufficient for someone who swings it in the 90-95mph range. 
So we changed the loft (thank goodness for an adjustable head) to 11 degrees and continued working on his swing based on the numbers I was seeing. 
His launch increased to an average of 12.7 degrees, angle of attack levelled out to an average of 2 and club path and face improved dramatically, resulting in straighter, higher shots.
 
Based on the readings, my understanding of trackman explained to me the following
1. 9 degrees of loft is insufficient for him. You are looking to launch the ball about 12-13 degrees with that club head speed.
2. By subconsciously trying to achieve higher launch, he has changed his set up and his swing to try and hit 'up' so much so that it has hurt his ability to drive the ball.
3. Too much of an upward angle of attack makes you strike the bottom of the face which would result in an even lower flight.

On this note I would like to say that 'good golf shots do not come from just video analysis alone. But video analysis will give a golfer the best chance to achieve the numbers required for the shot he desires'.
 
I hope more golfers have a chance to learn about this remarkable machine and the TMU workshop would be an excellent learning opportunity for our golfing community. Do contact Eric to find out more and I look forward to seeing you guys there!


Cheers
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:55 am

Great case for study...but i doubt many of the shopping golfers will be keen to read this. they live in their own world and i personally think they deserve to flood the market with WTS items.

most of the time when a player starts to get a bit of distance, they will think that its time to upgrade and the first thing they do is buy a lower loft driver thinking it will give them the extra roll but surprise surprise they get the opposite higher ball flight. so what do they do. tee up lower in an effort to bring the ball flight down and end up hitting down more. this as we know from the D-plane will result in higher spin and even a backspin off the driver. the cycle goes on until they realised..."Houston we have a problem". 

Justin......depending on the tempo and strength of the golfer, it will be great to put a 11 to 12 degree loft on your student with a stiffer shaft. when one wants true loft at impact, a stiffer shaft will help and usually a mid kick shaft is easier to "train the senses".

this is a very significant chart for coaches and fitters alike.....the opposite is the draw or hook.



and thank you for coming by and sharing your vision. 

Cheers.....DGman
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
Derek
Caddy
Caddy


Posts : 2159
Join date : 2009-10-20

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:30 am

Hmmm ... I get the first 2 diagrams (from the left) ... DGman, can help to explain the diagram on the right in a bit more detail?

_________________
========================================
What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
Back to top Go down
jhan18
Playing Professional
Playing Professional


Posts : 620
Join date : 2009-09-30
Age : 28
Location : Singapore

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:41 am

DGman wrote:
Great case for study...but i doubt many of the shopping golfers will be keen to read this. they live in their own world and i personally think they deserve to flood the market with WTS items.

most of the time when a player starts to get a bit of distance, they will think that its time to upgrade and the first thing they do is buy a lower loft driver thinking it will give them the extra roll but surprise surprise they get the opposite higher ball flight. so what do they do. tee up lower in an effort to bring the ball flight down and end up hitting down more. this as we know from the D-plane will result in higher spin and even a backspin off the driver. the cycle goes on until they realised..."Houston we have a problem". 

Justin......depending on the tempo and strength of the golfer, it will be great to put a 11 to 12 degree loft on your student with a stiffer shaft. when one wants true loft at impact, a stiffer shaft will help and usually a mid kick shaft is easier to "train the senses".

this is a very significant chart for coaches and fitters alike.....the opposite is the draw or hook.



and thank you for coming by and sharing your vision. 

Cheers.....DGman
Point noted. In this instance an expert club fitter like yourself would be able to prescribe the right tools for the golfer based on your understanding of the readings. A pity there is no such facility in Singapore where the Pro and club fitter could work hand in hand to not only get the golfer swinging better but fitted better as well.
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:45 pm

Derek....slide 3 is simple...for the guys who do not finish their swing, it means that they cut the path from impact to finish close to their body. imagine a lula loop that cut in half on the finishing and you will be able to see that the club head has to be rotated close to impact. this will cause what you see on pix 3.

now the important thing to note is the centrifugal force which is not on the face but at the middle of the club head. note the shaft position on pix 3, its behind the club head and as the head is closing with the centrifugal force coming from right to left, it will create a fade even thought it shows that the golfer has hit the sweet spot on the driver. but a trained eye can distinct between pure impact and side cut impact on the impact tape.

Derek....hope it helps.

coming back to academies and fitting, in an ideal world, it will be best to see this happening.....



and this........



but this gets in the way.......



i really hope we can make some positive change but unless the committees that serve at country clubs have the clout and embrace change, its just cheap talk.....

again, its not the operator fault or the coaches indifference. Per hour rates needs to be higher to make sure students get attended to and other aspect like test and revision at the end or beginning of the lesson can help enforce that learning is further trained after the class is over...i am sure coaches have different views about learning and training, i am just expressing my views from a business and clubfitter's point of view.

have a great week ahead...now back to TMU participation...anyone? someone did contact me this morning about getting a TM IIIe for his academy and he has been introduced to Tom Tontapanish.

DGman
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
Derek
Caddy
Caddy


Posts : 2159
Join date : 2009-10-20

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:50 pm

Thanks Eric, clear now ...

_________________
========================================
What's in the Bag

Driver: Callway X-Hot 10.5 with Fubuki 50S (pulled from a TM Burner SuperFast)
Woods: 19 Deg Callaway X-hot Proj X Stock S Flex
Hybrid: 22 Deg TM SF i70R, Cobra Baffler 25 Deg NS950R
Irons 5-Pw:  Titleist 704 CB NSP950 (Flex Unknown - think it is R)
Wedges: Perry Gear 52 Deg DG S300 and BFG 55 Deg KBS Hi-Rev, Tourstage 60 Deg
Putter: RIFE Antigua Island with Champ Large Grip
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:28 pm

looks like we have 6 signups so far...

so keep it coming......DGman
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
pushslice
Caddy
Caddy


Posts : 5606
Join date : 2009-12-26

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:17 pm

I am watching Golf Fix with Mike Breed right now and he's still explaining hitting draw and fades using old ball flight laws, topspin and backspin etc, on golf channel!
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:21 am

pushslice wrote:
I am watching Golf Fix with Mike Breed right now and he's still explaining hitting draw and fades using old ball flight laws, topspin and backspin etc, on golf channel!
i like that......even the great Golden Bear has admitted he was wrong all this years...Michael Breed....we should ask Sham for his view on this guy..
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
Ssquirrel
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1368
Join date : 2009-06-19

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:46 pm



This is D Plane I know... hahahaa.. maybe only old farts like me know the reference albino
Back to top Go down
popeyex
Junior Golfer
Junior Golfer


Posts : 104
Join date : 2011-05-09

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:48 pm

can someone explain these d-plane in very simple layman terms. correct me if i'm wrong: when you hit it right, the ball flight will not be straight but in fact a curve ball/fade. it will eventually land in a straight line in relation to the clubface on impact?
Back to top Go down
den
Newbie Golfer
Newbie Golfer


Posts : 97
Join date : 2011-04-13
Location : cyberspace

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:34 pm

http://trackman.dk/Media/Videos/James-Leitz.aspx
Back to top Go down
Cyp_PGA
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1141
Join date : 2009-11-11
Age : 27
Location : Gold Coast , QLD

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:46 pm

D-Plane is just saying that is the correlation between path and club face angle that make it draw or fade . the higher the degree are the more side spin are . so you can hit  draw with a open club face it only has to be close to the path . Correct me if i'm wrong .
Back to top Go down
nutty88
Super Active Golfer
Super Active Golfer


Posts : 1158
Join date : 2009-07-01
Age : 48
Location : Little Red Dot

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:26 pm

D-plane is based on the fact that the ball's flight pattern is primarily dependent on the club face orientation at impact, and that approximately 85% of the ball's initial flight direction is determined by the club face orientation while only 15% of the initial flight direction is dependent on the club head path at impact.


For example, if you take an open stance to the intended target line and your club face is square to the target line, the ball will start slightly left of the target line (85% relative to the club path) and it will curve to the right depending on your club head path (out-to-in). Note that this flight pattern holds true assuming that the club bottoms out at impact (i.e. not hitting up nor down) and it is a centered hit (i.e. not hitting at toe or heel).


Comparing to the old ball flight law, it says that the ball starts off in the direction of your club head path, which then deviates to left or right depending on the club face, i.e. closed or opened.


To the experts, please correct me if I am wrong.
Back to top Go down
jhan18
Playing Professional
Playing Professional


Posts : 620
Join date : 2009-09-30
Age : 28
Location : Singapore

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:48 pm

http://mytrackman.com/university/learning-tools/d---plane-and-gearing-effect




Pretty easy to understand for most.
Back to top Go down
jhan18
Playing Professional
Playing Professional


Posts : 620
Join date : 2009-09-30
Age : 28
Location : Singapore

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:58 pm

Cyp_PGA wrote:
D-Plane is just saying that is the correlation between path and club face angle that make it draw or fade . the higher the degree are the more side spin are . so you can hit  draw with a open club face it only has to be close to the path . Correct me if i'm wrong .
 If you dont mind me saying bro the golf ball does not have side spin.
Rather it's horizontal spin axis tilts according to the change of the D Plane.
It's horizontal axis will always spin perpendicular to the vertical angle of the D plane.
D Plane is perfectly vertical ball flies straight. Tilted to the left and the ball with hook to the left as the D Plane would had it's vertical and horizontal variables changed.
Simple analogy would be to imagine how a pilot steers his plane. If he wanted the plane to turn left he would tilt the plane left and it will turn more as he tilts the plane more.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
asahi
Course Marshal
Course Marshal


Posts : 10361
Join date : 2009-12-19
Age : 39

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:21 am

Had the chance to witness DGman guiding a 16 yr old young man on gaining distance thru the following pointers; 

1) Getting the golfer to stand 4 inches more away from the ball compared to usual setup
2) Aligning the ball more to the left (aligned with left foot)
3) Tee the ball higher up than previous.

And below is the result;






Before guidance, the golfer's AOA was 0.2 at best and drive for total distance was about 260m with 220m carry. By getting him to follow the 3 pointers above, the boy was able to improve his AOA to 3.1 and nailed his longest drive ever on the Trackman. The boy has proper coaching guidance from his coach thus far and now with the video analysis inputs from Trackman, seems to do the boy a whole lot of wonders in terms of distance gain.


On a sidenote, the Oban Kiyoshi Purple shaft was on the boy's 910 D3 head. He seems to like it a lot and a trail of saliva was seen from the Den's entrance all the way to the carpark.....
Back to top Go down
DGman
Hall of Fame Golfer
Hall of Fame Golfer


Posts : 6384
Join date : 2009-06-18

PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:04 am

The magic word was...stop using your baby set-up...you are now a big boy. previous swing was very upright, ball too far right and ball tee up too low. 

of course he is now in cycling and the stronger legs actually helped him complete his finish and his ability to hold his swing at finish. i am sure he will be spending more time in golf after his new found confidence.

sometimes its tough when a customer comes in and ask me to build them a club that will enable them to gain 20 meters, its doable but its not equipment alone as shown in this case. 

Asahi, i am sure you are pretty shock how a simple explanation of what it takes to impact the ball can result in more than 20 meters in distance, a lower ball flight and a reduction of 2000 spin rate.

i strongly believe that modern coaching technique will have to involved a good launch monitor and a good understanding of the ball flight rules.

like they say, the video shows you what the eye cannot see, the trackman shows you what the video cannot see. 

the TMU will be conducted in Singapore on the 15 and 16 of October at JCC with the support of Heartland Golf who have generously offered their premises for the workshop and course. many of the young professional coaches in Singapore have already inked their names to attend (including some friends from Indonesia). hopefully i will remember to take some pictures for the event....Twisted Evil so do not take nap in class.

DGman

PS...there was a happy ending after all. the Kiysohi Purple is out on "loan"......
Back to top Go down
http://www.bigfishes.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)   Today at 5:46 am

Back to top Go down
 
The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next
 Similar topics
-
» The D-plane. A club fitter and coaching perspective (an invitation to attend TMU)
» One amazing club fitter
» Club Fitter
» Club Fitter or Mizuno Fitter
» Tradehub 21 club fitter

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Singapore Golf Forum - Golf Republic :: The Pro Shop :: Golf Equipment-
Jump to:  
Friends of Golf RepublicFriends of Golf RepublicFriends of Golf Republic
Copyright © 2009 Golf Republic. All Rights Reserved.