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TigaWood
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PostSubject: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:48 am

Hi Pros,

The balls impact on my irons are always between the heel and centre of the club face.
Why is that so?
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:02 am

are you the one with the famous putter name after your nick...

from an equipment perspective.....either you placed the ball too far right at address or your irons lies are too flat. the resulting shot should be a fade or a slice. did you change your posture recently?

DGman
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TigaWood
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:35 am

DGman wrote:
are you the one with the famous putter name after your nick...

from an equipment perspective.....either you placed the ball too far right at address or your irons lies are too flat. the resulting shot should be a fade or a slice. did you change your posture recently?

DGman

DGman, yes it's me.
I think the lie and ball position is alright, my only suspect is my arms are to close to my body.
My posture is still the same but i do have the tendency of pulling my shots
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:02 pm

Eric,

I always tot that if the impact point is closer to the heel, the lie angles are too upright?

I might have got this one wrong. Thats what my PW is doing and its oni that particular club so I might need some lie adjustments.

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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:05 pm

Eric,
Could it also possibly be the club length too long?
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:07 pm

My impact are always very near the heels. I am curious too.

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S70B
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:08 pm

Sunny, I think u never adjust ur lie angles rite? I remember lookin thru them and trying them out.

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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:15 pm

Yep. So if it is the cause, would probably get them examined.

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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:17 pm

seebayho wrote:

I think the lie and ball position is alright, my only suspect is my arms are to close to my body.
My posture is still the same but i do have the tendency of pulling my shots

Are you too close the ball at setup?
Are you keeping you weight on the "Back" (right for right handers) foot through impact?

Both will produce pull shots and impact near heel.....
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TigaWood
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:25 pm

shorthitter wrote:
seebayho wrote:

I think the lie and ball position is alright, my only suspect is my arms are to close to my body.
My posture is still the same but i do have the tendency of pulling my shots

Are you too close the ball at setup?
Are you keeping you weight on the "Back" (right for right handers) foot through impact?

Both will produce pull shots and impact near heel.....

Hi Short,

Yes it seem that I stand too close, but unable to correct this bad habit.
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ironhead
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:21 pm

lie angle affects mainly the shorter irons, too upright swing plane can cause it besides all that mentioned above. Without posing yr swing for us to study, it's impossible to tell and you will go away believing in what you want to believe and ponder.
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:45 pm

seebayho wrote:
shorthitter wrote:
seebayho wrote:

I think the lie and ball position is alright, my only suspect is my arms are to close to my body.
My posture is still the same but i do have the tendency of pulling my shots

Are you too close the ball at setup?
Are you keeping you weight on the "Back" (right for right handers) foot through impact?

Both will produce pull shots and impact near heel.....

Hi Short,

Yes it seem that I stand too close, but unable to correct this bad habit.

just remind yourself to step back a little when u address the ball
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chemicalpro
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:30 pm

A quick guide to how far your club should be from your body:

At address, the butt of the club should be pointing at your belt buckle and the sole of the club should be flat or flushed against the ground.

From there, the distance between the butt of the grip and your belt buckle should be just about the width of your palm i.e. you can pass your palm through between this gap with a bit of allowance.

If you're doing so and still hitting off the heel, could be your swing's too flat (considering you tend to pull your shots).

If you need help with your game, see your local PGA professionals *queue golf channel music* Laughing
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bskt
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:29 am

It could be your swing pane is too flat. If you are a right hander, try adjusting your up swing not crossing over an imaginery line on your right shoulder Smile
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:37 pm

seebayho is a good golfer (low handicapper) but his stance tends to be a bit sloppy at times.

in this case, i don't think the lie is the issue but because if his hands at address is hanging inward (nearer to his body), it will generally produce an outside-in swing path because its a reaction to "clearing the hips". the result is a pull.

if the swing is right, all things being equal, the wrong lie will have the following results - if the lie is too flat, the sole towards the toe will hit the ground first, resulting in the face opening and a slice. but it the lie is too upright you will scrap the sole on the heel side resulting in a closed face and the resulting shot is an aggravated draw or hook.

the reason why you will have a heel impact for the flat lie is the ball will usually end up in the corresponding end of the club and not the same side.

i have come across a case study in the ICG forum where the golfer is using a club that appears to be too flat because the heel is hanging at address but apparently the guy is able to hit the 175y marker with his 7 iron 8 out of 10 shots and plays to a scratch handicap.

hope this helps.

DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:25 pm

There are a lot of misconceptions on lie angle and how it affects ball flight. We address these on a regular basis during our club fitting activities.

An upright lie angle that does cause the ball to go left and a flat lie angle that does cause the ball to go right is not caused from impact with the ground on the toe and opening the club or on the heel and closing it. Remember, when the club makes contact with the turf the ball is already gone, the divot comes after the ball is hit.

If a club is in the correct address position and you drew a line through the face to the target which your aiming at it would straight. If you lowered the club meaning dropped your hands or hands to create an upright lie angle you would see that lie pointing left of the target now. The same goes for flattening the lie angle the other way. This is what cause you to hit offline at impact.

I found this video on you tube from the legendary club builder Ralph Maltby which shows it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bzTrKsaMbQ&feature=related
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S70B
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:52 am

DGman wrote:
...
the reason why you will have a heel impact for the flat lie is the ball will usually end up in the corresponding end of the club and not the same side...

DGman

Eric, can u explain what u mean by 'the ball will usually end up in the corresponding end of the club and not the same side..?'

Will Length affect impact position too? Too short or too long?

This rogue PW is giving me a headache....
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:09 am

Rex, this takes a lot more explanation so bear with me.

unlike Ralph Maltby simple illustration, the golf swing is a little bit more complicated than demonstrated. he is showing a 2 D swing - up and down. in real life, the swing path can be inside-out, outside-in, flush straight (vertical angle), up and down (angle of attack) and the advent of technology (1000 fps camera and radar technology) have allowed us to better understand the golf club on impact.

the is a fair amount of club twist on impact and what Rick has stated is true if the player is able to "trap the ball", meaning strike the ball before the ground. the resulting shot is a backspin off a shorter iron. however the average golfer is unable to create the lag, accuracy and angle of attack and ends up striking the ground before the ball. this may also explained why pros have a different impact (clicky) sound on ball contact.

if you think of a club head twisting on impact off the ground, you will get a reverse point of contact. in most cases a flat lie do not result in a straight push. the ball will travel straight, then veer left towards the last 20 to 30% of the distance. the same with an upright lie angle but reversed effect. the reason is because of the physics of ball compression which is supported by the theory of hitting down to get the ball up. the best way to demonstrate this is hit off the impact board, you can't take a divot on the impact board so the result is easily magnified for verification.

we normally use black electrical tapes on sole and impact sticker on the face to record lie and ball impact. besides showing sole contact, it also show us whether the golfer has a inside-out or outside-in swing path. when you see lines sloping down from right to left, it is an outside-in swing path and vice-versa.

concerning your PW, we have numerous cases with golfers who have problems with their shorter iron because it stems from the way they swing their shorter iron or changes to their equipment. the lie angle is obviously the first area of scrutiny. but lets examine other areas as well....

1. did you strengthen or weaken the loft on them. because if you do, you may have created a different bounce or even created an onset or offset.

2. do you swing your PW different from your 8 iron? because your PW is shorter, your angle of attack will have to be a bit more steep.

3. how long is your PE, standard 35.75 inch or lengthen? an heel impact could also mean that the club is a fraction too long.

4. what is the spine position for the 9 iron and PW?

5. what flex are they in? if the shaft is too weak it can create an even steeper angle of attack.

6. Lastly, did you change your ball position?

thats why club fitting has to be dynamic to suit every golfers swing and not based on standard input. for a lot of the sets we build, we will use the natural bend point of the shaft up to 8 iron and the 9 iron in neutral and PW in strong.

The pros usually need more tweak. for the longer irons 5 and above, they usually required a little more than 1 degree lie so as to be able to play a variety of shots. but just like the science behind wedges, that is another subject all together.

not too long ago, w had MM hit 5 shots off his newly adjusted 3 and 4 iron. he show me his 4 irons and they were all on the toe side of the sole. i turn round to him and asked if he was playing fade shots...he smiled and said he was, then i asked him to play normal shots and he just flush them dead centre. pheww....for a moment, i was wondering how we can be so off....

DGman
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Ssquirrel
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:16 am

cheers
Nice reply DGMan Very Happy

Very chim... but enlightening cheers


(actually I don't understand 90% lah.. but the strong spine in wedges.. sounds interesting)
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:37 am

DGman wrote:

concerning your PW, we have numerous cases with golfers who have problems with their shorter iron because it stems from the way they swing their shorter iron or changes to their equipment. the lie angle is obviously the first area of scrutiny. but lets examine other areas as well....

1. did you strengthen or weaken the loft on them. because if you do, you may have created a different bounce or even created an onset or offset.

2. do you swing your PW different from your 8 iron? because your PW is shorter, your angle of attack will have to be a bit more steep.

3. how long is your PE, standard 35.75 inch or lengthen? an heel impact could also mean that the club is a fraction too long.

4. what is the spine position for the 9 iron and PW?

5. what flex are they in? if the shaft is too weak it can create an even steeper angle of attack.

6. Lastly, did you change your ball position?

DGman

Thanks for the wonderful explaination Sir. You might have solved it for me that my PW might be a tad flat. I will still answer ur questions anyway for the benefit of others.


1. Yes I did. Went 1* strong to 47*

2. No I dun. Same swing.

3. Its 36". I lengthened it 1/4" for my gorilla arms.

4 & 5. The Spine for 9i on KBS 5.5 is neutral. The PW is on X100s spined neutral too. I play my wedges with the heavier shaft for accuracy.

6. Nope.

To illustrate, here are some photos.

Address:


Bounce:


Face. The impact area as u can see. The impact near the centre was when it was 'std lie' and although I was striking it in the centre, I was having those slight draws or pulls. The impact became closer to the heel after I flatten the lie 2* like all my other clubs.


My MP68 PW. Very faint impact cos I oni started using it for 1 range session but u can see its more centre.


I just put it side by side and it looks abt 1/2 - 1*flatter than the Mizuno.
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:41 am

SS when did you come out of hibernation....can play this sunday?

DGman

i will answer your question later Rex....got to go to eat AYS bao now....
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:49 am

Sunday cannot.......Got SCB inaugural championship golf games...

Enjoy the AYS; and look after MT Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:59 am

No worries Eric, I think u answered my question.

Gotta go check that lie angle again. I got complacent and assumed that it was std lie to begin with so I bent it 2* flat like the rest.

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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:48 pm

DGman wrote:

however the average golfer is unable to create the lag, accuracy and angle of attack and ends up striking the ground before the ball.
DGman

With all due respect to Rick and all the GR members I was going to say the same thing........... Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: Ball impact   Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:59 pm

shorthitter wrote:
DGman wrote:

however the average golfer is unable to create the lag, accuracy and angle of attack and ends up striking the ground before the ball.
DGman

With all due respect to Rick and all the GR members I was going to say the same thing........... Surprised

and here i was thinking that i was the only one who can't take the divot AFTER the ball..... Rolling Eyes
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