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ironhead
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PostSubject: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:06 pm

boys n gals,

here is the argument.
it is too often that when one comes to an open golf forum, you will find there are many who are too occupied with some high end, high tech or even novelty products, this is true esp when you talk abt shaft spec?
Let me explain, I just could not understand when someone buy a driver and only to change the stock Aldila to an identical aftermarket Aldila shaft??? his excuse was ''oh... it's the standard stock shaft, so they must hav cut corners..etc ". Then 2 weeks later, changed it again. Good business for clubfitters I guess. Look at True Temper, the dynamic golf shafts, name me one thing in golf that has remained essentially unchanged in the last 20-30 yrs and still used by many world's top pro's to date. Good enough for them but not good enough for us? and they are the cheapest shafts available.
some shafts alone cost more than 1k EACH, honestly, i would never pay that much for a single shaft. afterall, it's not tht my life is dependent on it. I am not saying that some expensive one is not good, but to pay so much for that minute leap in performance is just not justifiable. There are just too many confounding variables in golf that can easily cancel out the gain.
how often do you hear some blokes in the driving range blame his driver when he's not driving well but take a liking on his pal's latest toy? another excuse to get the latest offer on the inter-changeable driver? I think not.

Just my humble opinion, i dont expect everyone to agree on this but I would just like to exchange friendly views on this topic.


Last edited by ironhead on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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daveaha
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:15 pm

Ironhead,
I believe I've seen the video that TM stock shaft is pretty crappy. That's why serious golfers tends to change their shaft to a better one. The change frequency is debatable as it's back to individuals.

And to like your friend's toy is quite normal. Not only for golf thing, but also MAY be applicable to IT gadgets, cars, jobs, house, flats, spouse (don't quote me on this, I love my family), etc etc. The grass is always greener on the other side Smile

I'll let the pro speak up about the technical details for the shaft Very Happy
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chemicalpro
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:20 pm

Well I agree with you ironhead. I don't knock shaft technology as it does make a difference, as for the magnitude of difference would differ per individual golfer.

I use True Temper, I love True Temper. Brilliant shafts at wonderful prices.

But I know what you mean by those who change stock shafts just because its stock.

Deep pockets maybe? Twisted Evil
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ironhead
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:35 pm

daveaha wrote:
Ironhead,
I believe I've seen the video that TM stock shaft is pretty crappy. That's why serious golfers tends to change their shaft to a better one. The change frequency is debatable as it's back to individuals.

And to like your friend's toy is quite normal. Not only for golf thing, but also MAY be applicable to IT gadgets, cars, jobs, house, flats, spouse (don't quote me on this, I love my family), etc etc. The grass is always greener on the other side Smile

I'll let the pro speak up about the technical details for the shaft Very Happy

hi,
am not denying there is a difference between std and very expensive shafts. stocked fujikura on the TM is not crappy at all, I believe 'serious' golfer Sergio uses std TM stock shafts,hmm....may be tht's why he hasnt won any major Laughing Laughing
perhaps, it's the mindset of ppl.

p/s do u still hav the link to the video u mentioned?
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daveaha
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:47 pm

I think this is the one. Posted before somewhere in the forum....

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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:24 pm

ironhead wrote:
daveaha wrote:
Ironhead,
I believe I've seen the video that TM stock shaft is pretty crappy. That's why serious golfers tends to change their shaft to a better one. The change frequency is debatable as it's back to individuals.

And to like your friend's toy is quite normal. Not only for golf thing, but also MAY be applicable to IT gadgets, cars, jobs, house, flats, spouse (don't quote me on this, I love my family), etc etc. The grass is always greener on the other side Smile

I'll let the pro speak up about the technical details for the shaft Very Happy

hi,
am not denying there is a difference between std and very expensive shafts. stocked fujikura on the TM is not crappy at all, I believe 'serious' golfer Sergio uses std TM stock shafts,hmm....may be tht's why he hasnt won any major Laughing Laughing
perhaps, it's the mindset of ppl.

p/s do u still hav the link to the video u mentioned?

I believe that what Sergio has is not the shafts we can buy in the retail shop. Supposedly the colours and graphics are even different though they still have the TM logos.

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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:16 pm

i think the "made for" stock shaft and actual shaft are totally different (even the manufacturers mention that). Couple that with "asian spec" and the "made for Callaway" NVS 55 stiff 'Asian/Japan Spec' that i had is really not suited for me. Add my poor swing, I could slice that bugger across the the whole driving range (no joke, carry from one end to the other end of MBGC driving range). Its the flex rating that is putting ppl off. The spec is maybe more suited for some1 with a slower swing but Not sure if I can buy an asian spec 'x-flex' driver. This can be very misleading when we try to order from the US (US spec shafts). The stock shaft will be a to stiff if we follow our "asian/jap" flex ratings

However many stock shaft are quite decent (eg my Ozik 60-S on my Adams 9015D is quite good, so are the latest offerings of stock shafts).

Unless ofcourse that guy bought a driver factory fitted (not stock, have to pay extra) to a NV 65 stiff THEN go and reshaft to the same NV 65 stiff shaft, then its really stupid.

Also many drivers are very closed, with more "player's" driver neutral or open. Add to that the actual loft vs stated (the "player's" drivers are more true to loft).
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:29 pm

dear ironhead,

i can sum up your argument with one question, ask any lady "why must buy LV or PRADA when u can some PANDA brand at a fraction cost"

function of a bag is to carry stuff, rite?? Very Happy
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chemicalpro
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:41 pm

Oei! Don't say Panda brand hor! Tuan Tuan and Yuan Yuan resents that!!!
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jon8ball
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:11 am

daveaha wrote:
I think this is the one. Posted before somewhere in the forum....


I think this is what they call the "spine angle" of the shaft..all the mass market clubs doesn't have the spine aligned with the club face. If you're worried bout this just bring ur clubs to clubfitters and get it adjusted...should be good enough after that..doesn't matter if yours is custom or stock. The next thing to think about is whether the frequency of the shaft suits your swing speed (Different brand's stiffness grade differs...hence need to check the frequency of the shaft..that's what the red color box under the shaft in the video is for).

But I think before u do all this, your swing consistency must be somewhat similar everytime you swing. if not, no point going custom. Me still beginner so mine is stock shaft without spine adjustments.. Razz Still training to have that level of consistency before thinking about custom..

My 2 cents only...please forgive me if i'm wrong ^^
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ironhead
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:22 am

jon8ball wrote:
daveaha wrote:
I think this is the one. Posted before somewhere in the forum....


I think this is what they call the "spine angle" of the shaft..all the mass market clubs doesn't have the spine aligned with the club face. If you're worried bout this just bring ur clubs to clubfitters and get it adjusted...should be good enough after that..doesn't matter if yours is custom or stock. The next thing to think about is whether the frequency of the shaft suits your swing speed (Different brand's stiffness grade differs...hence need to check the frequency of the shaft..that's what the red color box under the shaft in the video is for).

But I think before u do all this, your swing consistency must be somewhat similar everytime you swing. if not, no point going custom. Me still beginner so mine is stock shaft without spine adjustments.. Razz Still training to have that level of consistency before thinking about custom..

My 2 cents only...please forgive me if i'm wrong ^^

you are opening up a can of worms here abt pureing, floing and spinning etc .
I have lived long enuf not to take one's words for granted but insisting on seeing physical evidence/proof (preferably a written one tht opens to peer review).
I am always doubtful when I see this clip because
1) despite what u may think, golf does not require tht kind of super-precision
2) the test does not reflex the true state of a golf club hitting a ball, when have you ever seen club heads oscillate/wobble tht unpredictable in real life?
3) if this is what they claim, how come there is no real statistical data for public to see instead of relying on what certain clubfitters say (no disrespect to clubfitters) or the proprietors want us to believe. (if anything, the driving accuracy of some of the top Tour Pros such VSingh, RGoosen etc has not improved supposedly after they have had their driver shaft PUREd.)

I would like to elaborate on this if i may

Spining is the art of finding the seam or hard side of a shaft- be it steel or graphite. Spining has been around for a very long time- decades in fact and the technique is also used by fly rod manufacturers to align a fishing rod along the spine to ensure it casts properly.

What pureing does is not just find the hard side or "spine" in a shaft, but it identifies the one spot on the shaft length that is the most consistent. That spot may actually be the spine, but more likely, it will be somewhere off from the hard side. So in essence what pureing does is "fine tunes" the identification of the best spot along the shaft to make the shaft perform as if it were straight and round. Pureing is done with a pretty elaborate computer, so there is no margin for inaccurate readings of where that ideal plane is on the shaft. Spining process may be also liable to minor human variations. It's kind of like lining up a 25 foot putt with a big break. The guy that putts it naturally will sometimes get it in- while a robotic putting machine will get it in every time.

like many debates in Golf, in the end, it really doesn't matter if the technology of spining or pureing works or not however I do firmly believe that golfers should know what they are paying for. Personally, I don't think it works. The same question I will put to you; Does the R9 really go farther than a Cobra? Are the new Titliest balls worse than the old ones? Are Rifle shafts made differently now than they were three years ago and has the quality gone down?

It's all about enjoying the beautiful game of golf and if you are going to be happier knowing you are using the same shaft alignment technology as 'some' of the Tour players, regardless what the actual number of players may be, that is your choice and yours alone to make.
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ironhead
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:31 am

tronos wrote:
i think the "made for" stock shaft and actual shaft are totally different (even the manufacturers mention that). Couple that with "asian spec" and the "made for Callaway" NVS 55 stiff 'Asian/Japan Spec' that i had is really not suited for me. Add my poor swing, I could slice that bugger across the the whole driving range (no joke, carry from one end to the other end of MBGC driving range). Its the flex rating that is putting ppl off. The spec is maybe more suited for some1 with a slower swing but Not sure if I can buy an asian spec 'x-flex' driver. This can be very misleading when we try to order from the US (US spec shafts). The stock shaft will be a to stiff if we follow our "asian/jap" flex ratings

However many stock shaft are quite decent (eg my Ozik 60-S on my Adams 9015D is quite good, so are the latest offerings of stock shafts).

Unless ofcourse that guy bought a driver factory fitted (not stock, have to pay extra) to a NV 65 stiff THEN go and reshaft to the same NV 65 stiff shaft, then its really stupid.

Also many drivers are very closed, with more "player's" driver neutral or open. Add to that the actual loft vs stated (the "player's" drivers are more true to loft).

I take dynamic gold, an asian spec is exactly the same as US spec or Euro spec. This is just another variability tht some manufacturers use to confuse us even more. The trouble is there is no standardisation across the industry. how hard can it be for the shaft manufacturers to produce shafts to fall within certain frequencies for each level of flexes?
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:44 am

chemicalpro wrote:
Oei! Don't say Panda brand hor! Tuan Tuan and Yuan Yuan resents that!!!


okok, for tuan tuan n yuan yuan........why buy Honda when can afford BWM


sometimes functionality is not the only consideration
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:09 am

Different strokes for different folks, I believe.

I believe that there is some difference between what is a stock shaft versus what is an aftermarket shaft (is that the appropriate term?). The difference may not be huge but golf purists would definitely want the best for their game. If they can afford it, why not?

For me, I'm just learning the finer points of golf (and fumbling almost every step of the way). As much as I'd like to pay top dollar for top shafts, I think my game is undeserving of that sort of privilege and frankly, I doubt I would be able to maximize the features of the shaft.

Oh well. My 2c.

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WaLau
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:37 am

there are plenty of ways people choose to improve their golf game

some choose to visit many teacher
some choose to read many golf book
some choose to visit range regularly
some choose to play regularly
some choose to change club regular
some choose to change shaft regularly

and many more.....

it just a sign of showing passion to the game and endless searching of game improvement.

Respect their decision.

to me, i felt that its the balance of all that one should approach. But again, its time and money consuming, and thats why we need to have a day job.
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:43 am

think the steel shaft are easier to produce than the graphite shafts. Many ppl will change the stock graphite shaft for the drivers, many will use the stock for steel shaft
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Salty Dog
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:04 pm

The margin of error for iron shaft is much more than driver shaft. If you make 1 degree error for your 150m iron shot, your mistake will not be as disasterious as 250m driver shot. Smile

That's why people change the driver shaft and not iron shaft. Of course, there is also a diminishing return for shaft just like everything else. An example is hi-fi, my ears are only good enough for equipment around S$20k. Anything more than that is just money go down the drain for me as my ears can no longer tell the difference.
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tronos
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PostSubject: Re: novelty high tech = expensive = better play   Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:23 pm

my ex company use to produce steel shafts (not for golf shaft) but other similar shaft...its actually quite easy to produce and relatively easy to meet the control spec. Only if we make a big mistake in setup or poor tooling control, then the spec will be out.

biggest 'rip off'...made for japan and 'hand made' Homma shaft......then again we are paying $60 for a $1 shirt just because it has a brand (the $$ actually is in the branding and marketing, not the product but thats another topic) which is why i think SC is worth the price (as compared to other 'premium' putters) cause the milling process is actually easy and cheap.
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