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 What is Club Fitting?

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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:24 am

We all know that irons can be fitted as long as our irons are forged heads. Shafts can be cut. BUT can driver lofts be adjusted or you die die have to test and buy the loft you are meant to have?
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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:29 am

i kinda think driver is like wedge...can open face and close face....at least that is what I tot I had done
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:37 am

i disagree that the loft should be corresponding to club head speed. those assumptions could have been made before the availability of advance launch monitor to capture the crucial Angle of Attack.

the AOA is an important factor while the club head speed is only an influence in TW method of evaluating cause and preference.

don't think for a moment that everything thats written in a book or published on a website is the gospel truth. just like what i am saying here, its an opinion, a methodology or a process in arriving at a conclusion.

if someone comes in to me with a consistent positive AOA and a 68 mph, it does not mean i will not recommend a 9.5 degree driver. but i will not be giving him a 14 degree driver for sure.

DGman
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:50 am

Lee36328 wrote:


===========================================
Driver and Wood Loft

It is estimated that at least 90% of all middle and high handicap golfers are not playing with enough loft on their driver to fully maximize their distance off the tee. If your driver swing speed is 90mph or lower, 90% of you are going to need a driver loft of 12, 13 or 14 degrees to be able to achieve the launch angle that will keep the ball in the air long enough to carry the ball as far as your swing speed will allow. See the accompanying chart for a very general recommendation of driver loft vs swing speed.

Driver Swing Speed Driver Loft

50 mph 15 – 17 degs
60mph 14-16 degs
70mph 13 – 15 degs
80mph 12 – 14 degs
90 mph 11-13 degs
100mph 9.5 – 11.5 degs
110 mph 8 – 10 degs
Ranges are offered because of differences in the angle of attack with the clubhead into the ball. When the angle of attack is downward, more loft is required. When the angle of attack is upward, less loft is needed.

==========================================
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:52 am

DGman wrote:
i disagree that the loft should be corresponding to club head speed. those assumptions could have been made before the availability of advance launch monitor to capture the crucial Angle of Attack.

the AOA is an important factor while the club head speed is only an influence in TW method of evaluating cause and preference.

don't think for a moment that everything thats written in a book or published on a website is the gospel truth. just like what i am saying here, its an opinion, a methodology or a process in arriving at a conclusion.

if someone comes in to me with a consistent positive AOA and a 68 mph, it does not mean i will not recommend a 9.5 degree driver. but i will not be giving him a 14 degree driver for sure.

DGman
I think this makes more sense... I've seen a slow swinger using an 8.5 so effectively that he outdrove all of us. Impact sounded sweet, flight low and the ball just roll and roll drunken
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:55 am

Duval_S wrote:
i kinda think driver is like wedge...can open face and close face....at least that is what I tot I had done

You've been watching my coaching videos on YouTube again, haven't you?

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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:05 am

a very general recommendation starts to fail when applied to specific circumstances.

just be open minded, come to a club fitting session without pre-conception of what is better in general. Just hit blindly the recommended combos the fitter give. dun need to ask what the loft, what the shaft flex, length etc

see the results visually on the range or on trackman. use the best combo according to the numbers and your feel. whatever loft/shaft it would be.


Last edited by pushslice on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:06 am

Duval_S wrote:
i kinda think driver is like wedge...can open face and close face....at least that is what I tot I had done

can meh? I dare not. wait scared ball fly into rough. I will address square, stand square, everything square.
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:06 am

yes lee36328, i have gone through your post and i know you have that highlighted. i am adding how by using reliable launch monitor, one can help narrow down the key factor and influence better.

the table should be presented using AOA as a key factor and club head speed as an influence and not the other way. however not every club fitter has a launch monitor and its comforting to know that most of those in business today are starting to invest in them.

a lot of golfers read and start asking or doing what is stated on a website or a book. its a dangerous thing as the author has not seen the golfer's performance, the golfer is using points he read to be put in use.

do you know what happen to dave petz in a golf convention? he was asked to show how to he execute what he propose in his writing. he then proceeded to do so but with a catch, they have a sam putt lab to monitor what he preach. guess what he cannot in his life do what he teach. now you know why we have heard so little of the putting guru in recent times.

DGman
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 am

DGman wrote:


do you know what happen to dave petz in a golf convention? he was asked to show how to he execute what he propose in his writing. he then proceeded to do so but with a catch, they have a sam putt lab to monitor what he preach. guess what he cannot in his life do what he teach. now you know why we have heard so little of the putting guru in recent times.

DGman

Har nor. I also read a book asking me to time my putt like a metronome. I cannot for the life of me keep to a metronome timing especially after running all over looking for the ball with my heavy breathing. At the end I still stick to "feeling" for the distance.
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:36 am

under pressure....mechanics will fail, your natural flow will be a lot more reliable. there is an article in ST today that touch on Tiger's problem on the green.

the magic wand is the key training in ZPI.

DGman
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:11 pm

DGman wrote:


the magic wand is the key training in ZPI.

DGman

What is ZPI?
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Denmeister
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:14 pm

Gray wrote:
DGman wrote:


the magic wand is the key training in ZPI.

DGman

What is ZPI?

ZPI = ZEN PUTTING INOCULATION

as for its meaning, I am not very sure. There is a thread that talks about it here. Anyone can remember what the title was?
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:35 pm

Inoculation macam bird flu vaccination liao Razz

invocation la
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beehome
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:01 pm

haha... ROFL inject Zen poison lah! ZPI = Zen Poison Injection!
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:10 pm

DGman wrote:
do you know what happen to dave petz in a golf convention? he was asked to show how to he execute what he propose in his writing. he then proceeded to do so but with a catch, they have a sam putt lab to monitor what he preach. guess what he cannot in his life do what he teach. now you know why we have heard so little of the putting guru in recent times.

DGman

Many of these so-called golf swing gurus who have written tons of golf tips in golf magazines/books are nothing more than only selling theoretical "ideas" just to earn a living. They have to constantly come up with new ideas to earn their keep. I therefore usually give substantial discounts in what they preached.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:47 pm

DGman wrote:
yes lee36328, i have gone through your post and i know you have that highlighted. i am adding how by using reliable launch monitor, one can help narrow down the key factor and influence better.

the table should be presented using AOA as a key factor and club head speed as an influence and not the other way. however not every club fitter has a launch monitor and its comforting to know that most of those in business today are starting to invest in them.

a lot of golfers read and start asking or doing what is stated on a website or a book. its a dangerous thing as the author has not seen the golfer's performance, the golfer is using points he read to be put in use.

do you know what happen to dave petz in a golf convention? he was asked to show how to he execute what he propose in his writing. he then proceeded to do so but with a catch, they have a sam putt lab to monitor what he preach. guess what he cannot in his life do what he teach. now you know why we have heard so little of the putting guru in recent times.

DGman

Using a ball flight model I got from some very smart people, when I simulate those numbers, everything points to better distance when the launch angle is higher... except when the spin crosses a particular point. At excessive spin, lower launch angle is actually better. When the spin is quite high, I can see where your point where it relates to AoA.

So, it looks like Tom Wishon's table presumes a reasonable amount of spin.
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:10 am

Bouncing off Denmeister's Tom Wishon article, I found another Tom Wishon writeup on the subject entitled "Angle of Attack: Its Role in Fitting", which I found educational and might also be worth sharing here.

He analyses two players, Bubba Watson and Charles Howel III using Trackman, and discusses angle of attack implications for them and for the general golfing public by extension.

Quotable quotes include:

"The Angle of Attack is hugely important in the determination of the optimum driver loft for all golfers because it has a big influence on the dynamic loft of the head at impact. An upward angle of attack increases the dynamic loft and increases the launch angle of the shot for any given static driver loft. A downward angle of attack decreases the dynamic loft and lowers the launch angle of the shot for any given static driver loft."

"Optimum launch conditions for maximum distance are primarily dependent on clubhead speed and the angle of attack."

"With the assistance of TrackMan, we can offer the following chart which reveals the most optimum launch parameters for maximum CARRY DISTANCE for a number of different clubhead speeds (swing speed) and different angles of attack

Keep in mind that when fairways are firm and very dry, it is always best to reduce the loft/dynamic loft/launch angle and reduce the carry distance to lower the shot trajectory and take advantage of more roll on the fairways for the greatest total distance."

I find the above statement intriguing, because my longest drive has come from a low stinger-like shot, which rolled to about 290m (possibly with the benefit of a sprinkler head bounce, can't tell for sure), instead of a more typical 250-260m. So I am of two minds whether to launch it higher or keep it low.

Chart reproduced below.



Full article here.

http://www.iseekgolf.com/clubfittingandrepairs/7313-angle-of-attack-its-role-in-fitting

What I learnt from the above is slightly ego-bruising. At about 103 mph driver clubhead speed, the closest in the table for me is 105 mph. Yet even at that speed, if I hit up on impact at 5 deg, my optimum driver loft is 10 deg. If I hit it level, it becomes... gulp... 12 deg. If I HIT DOWN about -5 deg, it becomes an emasculating 14.5 degree. At last check, I can hit up about 3 degree, so I am cutting it close. Which probably explains why I usually don't do too well with a 9.5 degree loft.

Peace.
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Denmeister
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:13 am

pushslice wrote:
Inoculation macam bird flu vaccination liao Razz

invocation la

Darn..... Should have checked the dictionary before writing....... No wonder I didn't feel right when I wrote it
Laughing
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Gray
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:18 am

I've got two thoughts or rather two questions.

One is if we use a high lofted driver, then our tee should be low cos we are catching the ball on the down swing. Vice versa tee up higher if we use a low loft driver?

Next, can we simply use the same loft driver by simply moving the ball position front and back to hit the driver on the down or up swing instead of changing driver?
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:51 am

due to the biomechanics or the technique a player is trained. he or she will have a natural angle to level out at impact. there are folks who even when the ball is placed in the middle of the stance will produce a 0 degree AOA.

last week we had a very unique case. the golfer had to use a very weak right hand to produce a straight ball flight. he was not casting nor was there anything wrong with his swing. however with a weak right which is his dominate hand, he was not able to optimise his distance. there was no way with his strength and technique that he cannot go beyond the 160 meters range.

finally we got him to stand with his back on the wall and then got him to stretch out his arms paralleled to the wall. his right hand was 1 and half inch longer than his left!

so we got him to hold the driver with both hands right on top of his left and every thing was straight. the reason for his hook was the longer right hand. for normal folks its like using a baseball grip with an obvious gap between the left and the right.

all things being equal, the future in golf may see beginners being tested for biomechanics before introducing them to a particular type of swing which will naturally work better for them. the same for club fitting. i know that there are centres that do this at a very early stage to ensure that physical condition is considered first to make sure optimisation is key.

we are only at the tip of the iceberg and i am sure what follows will challenge and change many conventional methodology that coaches and clubfitters used in the past.

DGman
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Lee36328
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:42 am

Gray wrote:
I've got two thoughts or rather two questions.

One is if we use a high lofted driver, then our tee should be low cos we are catching the ball on the down swing. Vice versa tee up higher if we use a low loft driver?

Next, can we simply use the same loft driver by simply moving the ball position front and back to hit the driver on the down or up swing instead of changing driver?

If I am understanding the concept correctly, and I'm certainly no Tom Wishon nor a clubfitter, my observation fwiw is thus.

One is if we use a high lofted driver, then our tee should be low cos we are catching the ball on the down swing. Vice versa tee up higher if we use a low loft driver?

Your question implies that using a high lofted driver will cause you to catch the ball on the down swing. I would say the implied cause and effect does not hold in that order. Rather, it is the reverse. If you are already catching the ball in the down swing, you have a negative angle of attack, and would benefit from additional loft in the driver to help increase the launch angle closer to optimum. And vise versa. In either case, simply adjust the height of the tee until you comfortably/consistently get impact at the desired point, usually toward the top half of the driver club face.

Next, can we simply use the same loft driver by simply moving the ball position front and back to hit the driver on the down or up swing instead of changing driver?

Yes, of course you can. It is neither against the rules, nor against the laws of physics. The question is whether it is optimal or whether it gets you closer to optimal. By moving the ball position, the effect is, as you have correctly pointed out, to make it easier to catch the ball with the desired angle of attack. Given the physics governing ball flight, there is an optimum launch angle (and spin) for any given swing speed, assuming we are going for maximum carry. (Roll is a bit hard to model in an equation because we have no knowledge of the real world condition of the ground surface, etc. I usually ignore the roll numbers in Trackman and just look at the carry.)

So, for illustration, lets assume someone who already has an 8.5 degree lofted driver. Can't this person just hit up on it more, with his current swing speed, until it is optimum? Lets say his swing speed is 75 mph (we take the low end to exaggerate the difference to see the point clearer.) If Tom Wishon's table is to be believed, then at zero AoA, the player needs to achieve around 18 degree launch angle. Assuming not much impact from the shaft kicking upward, the driver loft is indicated at the table to be 19 deg. Each additional increase in the angle of attack upward decreases the driver loft. So if the person has an 8.5 degree loft, he would somehow need to find a way to hit upward around +10 deg angle of attack. The angle is not precise to the nth degree, but it gives one a feel of the relationship between club loft and launch angle. (A very low kicking high launching shaft would also help to some degree. This is where fitting comes in. But I would presume Tom Wishon being a club fitter would already have that in mind in his table.)

So, how does one go about hitting upward 10 degree? We can move the ball more toward the target. That would help. But we would be constrained by the height of the tee, which has a legal limit.

Plus, hitting upward too much destabilizes the balance of the pivot. Hitting upward reliably achieving good impact with reasonable ball dispersion is a non-trivial skill.

In my trackman session yesterday, I was faced with just such a low launch issue. I had to make some significant changes in my set up and pivot just to increase my launch angle from zero to +3 degree, which is closer to optimum for 103mph. But the carry distance and launch angle numbers did show improvement. That was with a 10.5 degree driver. When I switched to a 9.5 degree, even with a slightly softer and higher launching shaft, my launch angle dropped significantly and I was hitting 'stingers' again.

So, short answer is, can be done, provided the gap we are trying to close is not too wide.

Final friendly consumer reminder, apply large doses of salt and common sense to the musings above.

Peace.
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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:10 am

DGman wrote:


all things being equal, the future in golf may see beginners being tested for biomechanics before introducing them to a particular type of swing which will naturally work better for them. the same for club fitting. i know that there are centres that do this at a very early stage to ensure that physical condition is considered first to make sure optimisation is key.

we are only at the tip of the iceberg and i am sure what follows will challenge and change many conventional methodology that coaches and clubfitters used in the past.

DGman

Methinks this makes a lot of sense. Our human bodies are all structured differently from birth. And as we grow, our bodies grow different; in terms of skeletal structure, muscles growth, muscles and joints tightness.
So with all these body variables, it is not inconceivable that some of us cannot perform certain range of golf swing movements in certain golf swings. Therefore no matter how hard we try to adapt our body to a swing that does not match our body/skeletal/muscle structure, we will never be able to get 100% to the desired swing taught to us. Hence we should be looking for a golf school to impart a swing that suits our body which would reap more benefits out of it and more sense!
And i guess this is where biomechanics can/will come in to golf and help a lot of golfers out there.

Food for thought......some of our junior golfers after a certain age seem not able to have any more breakthru in their game. Why?
I would hazard the guess that their body structures had changed along with their growth and age and with the bodily changes, there could be some changes/limitations on how their swing can be improved further. Their biomechanics changed over time with their bodily growth. But their coaches may still be prescribing to them the same swings and drills as they had done previously when they were younger. The coaches failed to take into account that their proteges bodies had changed and maybe it is time to get their charges to change how they swing their clubs! Hence, stagnancy sets in for these junior golfers and eventually they drop out of the golfing circuit.

Possible that biomechanics at play somehow? Your guess is as good as mine.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:12 pm

asahi wrote:
Methinks this makes a lot of sense. Our human bodies are all structured differently from birth. And as we grow, our bodies grow different; in terms of skeletal structure, muscles growth, muscles and joints tightness......

So Asahi, any particular muscle of yours has grown since ur 2 week tour stop experience to learn from the lady pros? lol!

That said, EE is an example. Sure he has gone from Leadbetter to BH to whoever but looking at his 24yr old swing and his 40+ swing, he def has some changes even though the silky smooth tempo is there.

Bottomline is Clubfitting is part science, part art and all mental. Even the best clubfitter cannot convince u to change if results are not proven to u otherwise. So for all the armchair skeptics/critics and commentators, theory here and there is good la but too much of it is just gonna f up ur decision choices.

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PostSubject: Re: What is Club Fitting?   Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:08 am

Hi all,

just have some questions with regards to club fitting.

I recently bought a set of Callaway X20. Steel uniflex shafts.

getting consistent hits already. however, since its a GI set, there is quite alot of offset.

Just wondering, since its a stainless steel head.

Can it still be fitted?

thanks!
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