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 What will a Flat lie lead to?

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DGman
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PostSubject: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:14 pm

Hi Paul, Allen, Tendy, Justin H and another other pros....

What do you think a flatter than naturally lie will lead to??? with the exception of RSS and the single swing plan which naturally support a longer length and flatter lie.

i have come across a lot of golfers who have an unnaturally flat lie in their clubs and noticed certain changes in their swing which causes inconsistency.

Any thoughts anyone?

DGman
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Ssquirrel
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:20 am

Non-pro can give a weekend hacker's point of view or not?
I think can just discount my thoughts and then understand why it's better to see a pro than to take advise from weekend hacks off a golf internet forum... hahaha...

Actually I find most off the shelf clubs a little upright for me. So in my rubbish "experiments" to bend the lie flatter to experiment, I find that if the lie is too flat, the golfer (or me the weekend hack) will tend to compensate and in the stance/posture, there will be slightly more bend in the hips/waist, hands will hang lower. The golfer will stand slightly closer to the ball and hence the wrists will be closer to the thighs and there seems to be less space for the arms to "clear" during the downswing. This usually resulting in more "out to in" swing path, maybe because subconciously the golfer is afraid that there is not enough room for the arms to clear through (maybe scared hand kenna thighs hahaha)


Hahaha... take my bs "observation" with a pinch of salt hor... Very Happy
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chemicalpro
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:25 am

Go Single Plane Swing Go!!!

No offense RSS Laughing
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:25 am

Great observation TSS...there are more possible compensation and faults that may occur as a result of too flat a lie.

anyone care to comment?

DGman
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mervyntan
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:10 pm

how many degrees flat is considered too flat??

is 6 degrees flat too flat?
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:45 pm

I believe there are flatter ones ... as my idol and Mentor TSS has already said this may result in a severe out to in swing ... i experienced it and almost gave up ... but having said that.. it also depends on the height of the golfer and his wrist to floor measurement.. sorry for my uneducated 2 cents ..
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:13 am

Lamts18 wrote:
I believe there are flatter ones ... as my idol and Mentor TSS has already said this may result in a severe out to in swing ... i experienced it and almost gave up ... but having said that.. it also depends on the height of the golfer and his wrist to floor measurement.. sorry for my uneducated 2 cents ..


Sorry bro but lie angle is determined by impact position not how tall the golfer is.Rather the length of the club would determine whether you strike closer to the heel or toe. However yes you are right, a flatter lie would also create a severe out to in swing as the ball would always want to start right. I've seen cases where someone would hit a slight fade or even a draw with driver and a huge cut with irons. It's amazing how clubs determine the way you swing sometimes. A flatter lie would also equal a higher, less penetrating higher spin ball flight because the face wants to open at impact. However it has shown that lie angle can overwrite a slight out to in or vice versa in to out swing path. For example if your lie is 1 degree to upright and you swing out to in with a slightly open face, the ball will go straight. I have a friend with a lie of 6degrees flat, swings in to out but because he rotates the club quite a lot at impact, he needs something to stop it from going left. But at the end of the day, your lie would be a huge factor contributing to the ball flight and swing you'd like to achieve.
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shorthitter
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:31 am

I had a hit with a blokes blades yesterday, and they are very very flat.... u no who.... unless I swung OTT I could not get straight, everything was a huge fade........
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:21 am

jhan18 wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
I believe there are flatter ones ... as my idol and Mentor TSS has already said this may result in a severe out to in swing ... i experienced it and almost gave up ... but having said that.. it also depends on the height of the golfer and his wrist to floor measurement.. sorry for my uneducated 2 cents ..


Sorry bro but lie angle is determined by impact position not how tall the golfer is.Rather the length of the club would determine whether you strike closer to the heel or toe. However yes you are right, a flatter lie would also create a severe out to in swing as the ball would always want to start right. I've seen cases where someone would hit a slight fade or even a draw with driver and a huge cut with irons. It's amazing how clubs determine the way you swing sometimes. A flatter lie would also equal a higher, less penetrating higher spin ball flight because the face wants to open at impact. However it has shown that lie angle can overwrite a slight out to in or vice versa in to out swing path. For example if your lie is 1 degree to upright and you swing out to in with a slightly open face, the ball will go straight. I have a friend with a lie of 6degrees flat, swings in to out but because he rotates the club quite a lot at impact, he needs something to stop it from going left. But at the end of the day, your lie would be a huge factor contributing to the ball flight and swing you'd like to achieve.

Thanks Pro Justin for your kind correcting my mistakes. I have learned... This forum is a great place to learn and share esp with the Professionals here .. Have a great Sunday, cheers ..
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S70B
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:14 am

Eric also told me in another thread that too flat a lie will cause more shots towards the heel. Something to think about if u think going flatter is right.

OT abit, so Mr Lam, coming over?

Razz

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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:17 am

So too flat a lie is also not good? I was thinking that I need to make my lie more flat but will reconsider.

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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:20 am

Make the lie right, not flatter or more upright.

Go check whether ur clubs are the correct lie for u. That means hitting it off a lie board.

Do it for the full set of irons too. Most of the time, some places oni do it for the 6 iron.

I'm sure Eric will find out. It doesn't cost alot too.

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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:21 am

S70B wrote:
Make the lie right, not flatter or more upright.

Go check whether ur clubs are the correct lie for u. That means hitting it off a lie board.

Do it for the full set of irons too. Most of the time, some places oni do it for the 6 iron.

I'm sure Eric will find out. It doesn't cost alot too.

Thanks, Rex. I'll pop by the Den for this Smile

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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:41 am

S70B wrote:
Eric also told me in another thread that too flat a lie will cause more shots towards the heel. Something to think about if u think going flatter is right.

OT abit, so Mr Lam, coming over?

Razz

Sir, The man said not coming .. i still pondering ... Smile
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:43 am

S70B wrote:
Make the lie right, not flatter or more upright.

Go check whether ur clubs are the correct lie for u. That means hitting it off a lie board.

Do it for the full set of irons too. Most of the time, some places oni do it for the 6 iron.

I'm sure Eric will find out. It doesn't cost alot too.


My irons were adjusted 1 to 2 deg upright after hitting the lie board ....
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:50 am

Lamts18 wrote:
S70B wrote:
Eric also told me in another thread that too flat a lie will cause more shots towards the heel. Something to think about if u think going flatter is right.

OT abit, so Mr Lam, coming over?

Razz

Sir, The man said not coming .. i still pondering ... Smile

No Probs n no pressure Sir. Will be reporting 'live' from there next mth. Wink
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:55 am

S70B wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
S70B wrote:
Eric also told me in another thread that too flat a lie will cause more shots towards the heel. Something to think about if u think going flatter is right.

OT abit, so Mr Lam, coming over?

Razz

Sir, The man said not coming .. i still pondering ... Smile

No Probs n no pressure Sir. Will be reporting 'live' from there next mth. Wink


As always , looking forward to your posts ... will see how for the trip .. as now going to China for golf early Jan and to Bkk with the man on 3 week of Jan ... he's going for a very strange conference ... cannot post here .. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:00 am

Sorry .. corrections .. his wife going for the strange conference in Bkk ... we going golfing ...
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:14 pm

Thanks Justin, Allen and Rex for your inputs and just a small extension of your sentence Rex...the resulting shot off a flat lie is usually a off centre shot on the face thats closer to the heel. But having an off-plane swing (inside-out or outside-in) can also result in this, so its not easy to analyse this with a great degree of accuracy without recording the actual swing.

anyway i will be putting up some illustration so that most of the golfers out there have some reference.

there is a link between the lie of the club at address but mostly the primary objective of having the clubs adjusted is to ensure a square face at impact.

Thanks....DGman
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nientsu
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:47 pm

Hello. This suddenly got my interest

I got a fren who has very very flat irons.

And he loves it so much. Apparently, to hit these irons, you will need to bring the club inside (very) on the upswing. This guy, adores this person called John Erickson and tries to bring the club back like him I have a link showing his swing. And if you read about him, he is also one hell of a character. He refuses to use normal drivers to tee off and still continue to use perssimons and blades, citing technology is weakening a golfers' technique. He is one hell of a golf purist. Well....to each his own........

John Erickson

Perhaps, maybe Eric, Paul, Kiwi, Rexy, SS or any one would like to share their comments....
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:02 pm

DGman wrote:
Hi Paul, Allen, Tendy, Justin H and another other pros....

What do you think a flatter than naturally lie will lead to??? with the exception of RSS and the single swing plan which naturally support a longer length and flatter lie.

i have come across a lot of golfers who have an unnaturally flat lie in their clubs and noticed certain changes in their swing which causes inconsistency.

Any thoughts anyone?

DGman

DGman
Firstly just to clarify, RSS will generally have a flatter lie angle, however not a longer length.

I think a too flat lie angle will definitely cause opening of club face at impact and fades as SH mentioned. If a player is hitting alot of fades, then in time they will try to straighten out the shots by making compensations in their swing.

On the other hand, a player that has an over the top, steep downswing will not magically correct that swing fault but having lies adjusted.

I think it is a catch 22. A fitter and instructor should work hand in hand to correct a students swing and ball flight. I also believe that a square clubface at impact is much more influenced by the students grip than their lie angles.

As Rick (Titleist) mentioned in another thread, the club impacts the ball before the turf.

Also how do you explain why a player comes in over the top with their driver as well. The lie angle on driver is irrelevant as it is hit from a tee. This is not a swing fault caused by lie angles being too flat.

Those that have followed my posts and taken lessons with me should now know that a steep downswing is a result of poor set up, incorrect turning direction etc. This has a much greater effect than lie angles in my opinion.

Most over the top swings need very upright lie angles as the players arms and bodies straighten upwards at impact to avoid chopping into the ground.
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:07 pm

Paul,

As we have always work hand in hand with you, we understand what your students need from putter to irons. the longer length is meant more for the single swing plane school of teaching.

thank you for your response and as usual its a pleasure working with you.

RogY is a shinning example of what RSS has brought about to a golfer who previously had no length and an inconsistent iron game.

DGman
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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:18 pm

There was a previous discussion on this in the thread below. This was however from clubs too upright. You can see from the pictures how the lie angle change improved the impact

http://www.golfrepublic.org/golf-equipment-f7/club-fitting-what-does-it-entail-t641-60.htm#13287
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PostSubject: Re: What will a Flat lie lead to?   Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:44 pm

nientsu wrote:
Hello. This suddenly got my interest

I got a fren who has very very flat irons.

And he loves it so much. Apparently, to hit these irons, you will need to bring the club inside (very) on the upswing. This guy, adores this person called John Erickson and tries to bring the club back like him I have a link showing his swing. And if you read about him, he is also one hell of a character. He refuses to use normal drivers to tee off and still continue to use perssimons and blades, citing technology is weakening a golfers' technique. He is one hell of a golf purist. Well....to each his own........

John Erickson

Perhaps, maybe Eric, Paul, Kiwi, Rexy, SS or any one would like to share their comments....

John, aka lagpressure is awesome. A true traditionalist of the game. Uses persimmon woods and blade irons. I would say his lie angles would be on the flat side. Like all quality ball strikers, he has the low hand impact position , thus flatter lie angles

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