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 Free Relief from Flower Bed???

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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:03 pm

From the other thread...

lennylim wrote:
mUAr_cHEe wrote:

to clarify the cheat part. I tot ball in flower bed equals to free drop. shotah clarified that must find ball, then can free drop. so it was lost ball for me. par become double bogey.

U guys played at MBGC rite? i also thot flower beds there are free relief.
I remember the flower bed areas say free relief under rule 25-1 or something.
Is this the correct rule to apply?

Rule 25-1
c. Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found
It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found
after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition
is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must
be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal
ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty,
the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been
found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take
relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the
ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground
condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying
this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player
must proceed as follows:
(i) Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits
of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the
player may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as
prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i).
(ii) In a Bunker: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of
the abnormal ground condition at a spot in a bunker, the player may
substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as prescribed
in Rule 25-1b(ii).
(iii) In a Water Hazard (including a Lateral Water Hazard): If the
ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition
at a spot in a water hazard, the player is not entitled to relief
without penalty. The player must proceed under Rule 26-1. (iv) On the Putting Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost
limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot on the putting green,
the player may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief
as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(iii).

From my understanding of these words,

"f it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. "

Example is that today everyone saw me tee off, the ball bounced off the cart path and went into the flower bed.

Since we are all certain and saw the ball go in there, I guess i am entitled to relief?


Pls correct me if i am wrong. Or is there any over-riding rule that says that we must be able to take back our original ball for free-relief.


I remember another story about a guy demanding free relief because he can see where his ball is. But he cannot take it, because it is down in a 3 metre deep drain.
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shotah
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:09 pm

Yah... need to clarify this, if this is true, then I have also been cheated in previous games. Wink MC, sorry if you got a free relief cos i thought that the lost ball rule take precidence.
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ghoonk
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:17 pm

if i recall correctly, the ball must be retrievable to be entitled to relief. Otherwise, everyone will tee off into flower bed (intentional or otherwise) and get free relief

Any golf coaches on this forum care to comment?
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:26 pm

i agree with ghoonk ... the ball must be found to be entitled to free lift ... else its lost ball ..
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:27 pm

no problem. i just want to clarify as well so that i do not make a fool out of myself again.

i some more say "par" so loudly today.
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ghoonk
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:28 pm

i'm also not sure. was also taught that if ball go into FB and cannot be found, then free drop. If can be seen, cannot be retrieved, then still free drop. If cannot be seen, then who can say if the ball really ended up inside flower bed, then how to declare free drop?

really hoping a pro can comment on this too
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mervyntan
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:36 pm

the crux of the matter is actually whether or not the ball is deemed to be definitely in the flowerbed or not.

if found in flowerbed, relief and play without penalty

if not found in flowerbed,

1. flightmates all agreed that ball is in flowerbed, but unable to find, drop without penalty

2. flightmates do not know, or agree that ball is in flowerbed, and unable to find, then deemed lost ball, play with penalty.

otherwise, abovementioned scenario is subject to abuse. if i know right side has got a flowerbed, and it doesn't matter if i find it, as long as it heads in the general direction of flowerbed, i will just whack the ball with all my might, say it is in flowerbed without finding the ball, and drop, gain distance as well as free drop.

anyway, i heard this from a pro, and i am only contributing here cos i witnessed muar chee cheating today, so i must prevent him from cheating further.
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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:36 pm

My 2 cents

Definition of Abnormal Ground Conditions is:

An “abnormal ground condition” is any casual water, ground under repair or
hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile
or a bird.

You would have to check the score card local rules to see whether gardens beds are regarded as GUR. If so then I believe MC is entitled to free relief as it is certain that the ball did finish in the garden bed.

I am no rules guru so I maybe wrong!
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mervyntan
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:40 pm

Right_sided_coach wrote:

You would have to check the score card local rules to see whether gardens beds are regarded as GUR. If so then I believe MC is entitled to free relief as it is certain that the ball did finish in the garden bed.


how to determine certainty that ball did finish in the flower bed?

just because he claimed to have seen the ball fly into the flowerbed, is that certainty?

otherwise, i can keep claiming that the ball is in flowerbed when i lose ball, and then i get a free drop.

thanks for yr answer, RSC.
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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:43 pm

I guess this is where the grey area comes into it and the integrity of the player and his playing partners

In order to apply this Rule, it must
be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal
ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty,
the player must proceed under Rule 27-1

I will leave it to you boys to argue that one out
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:23 am

from wat i do know, ball must be found in the flower ball b4 u can claim free relief...

however, ONLY at mbgc, there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to lookk for ball to claim free relief....... next time i go take pics of the signboard

but for elsewhere like NSRCC, u need to find the ball in the flower bed.......
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 1:39 am

slinger wrote:
from wat i do know, ball must be found in the flower ball b4 u can claim free relief...

however, ONLY at mbgc, there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to lookk for ball to claim free relief....... next time i go take pics of the signboard

but for elsewhere like NSRCC, u need to find the ball in the flower bed.......


Thanks Slinger for your clarification ....
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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:14 am

Lamts18 wrote:
slinger wrote:
from wat i do know, ball must be found in the flower ball b4 u can claim free relief...

however, ONLY at mbgc, there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to lookk for ball to claim free relief....... next time i go take pics of the signboard

but for elsewhere like NSRCC, u need to find the ball in the flower bed.......


Thanks Slinger for your clarification ....

I found this on another golf forum

http://www.golfzone.co.id/ForumZone/Golf-Rules/84-ReBall-Lost-in-Flower-Bed-Defined-as-GUR.html

I think we should get a rules expert to clarify
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siaw8
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:21 am

Rage also told me that the ball must be found before a free drop applies.... did he cheated me?
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Ssquirrel
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:58 am

Interesting!
I'm very bad with golf rules.

I always thought that to claim free relief you need to find the ball, but slinger mentioned that "there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to look for ball to claim free relief"

In light of this "local rule" then it must be "known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the flower bed before you can claim free relief?

So I guess at the tee-box MC should claim "ball bounced off cart path an into flower bed" last point crossed at so-and-so. Then all at the tee box must agree. If another player says he doesn't agree or that the ball could have bounced anywhere else, then there is doubt and it should be a lost ball.
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Agumon
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:09 am

so long as 1 other player see it going into flower bed enuff? hopefully dont need all players to se it ..
cos if anyone looked away.. eg tie shoe lace or looking at some SYT on other holes..
its deemed a lost ball.. hahhahah

so in future b4 tee off gotto ask all others to look for yur ball?
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:10 am

i will b playing there tmrw again. i will take pics and post.
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:10 am

I agree with SS ... anyway i will check on this afternoon at Garden .. since we have so many flowers beds there ...
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slinger
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:24 am

mUAr_cHEe wrote:
i will b playing there tmrw again. i will take pics and post.


esp hole 17, left side flowerbed n hole 18 right side flowerbed.....
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:40 am

Wow !! Slinger has elephant memory !!! cheers
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lennylim
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:43 am

slinger wrote:
mUAr_cHEe wrote:
i will b playing there tmrw again. i will take pics and post.


esp hole 17, left side flowerbed n hole 18 right side flowerbed.....

agree, i also took free relief on hole 17 when i played on wed, altho my flight mate did find my ball. we almost gave up and i was about to drop another ball liao.

MC, also check the local rule on the score card... i never bother reading what it says. in this case the local rule could define that area of flower bed at GUR or abnormal ground condition or specify that entitled to free relief.

After that, given that area is pre-defined as GUR under local rule, then Std Rule 25-1c wld apply and can claim free relief no penalty if certain ball is lost in the GUR.

In other courses, the local rules may not define flower bed as GUR or abnormal, so its an integral part of the course, play as it lies if u find it, and stroke/distance penalty if cannot find (as we have always assumed).

Incidentally, while looking up the rule book appendix, the rules also
provide for free relief no penalty if virtually certain the ball not
found is in, on or under a Temporary Immovable Obstructions (e.g.
tents, grandstands, etc for competitions).
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:51 am

Have emailed and invited Raymond Tan, President of SSGA to post in GR and his views on this subject. He is subject matter expert and certified one as well.
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shotah
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:59 pm

Ssquirrel wrote:
Interesting!
I'm very bad with golf rules.

I always thought that to claim free relief you need to find the ball, but slinger mentioned that "there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to look for ball to claim free relief"

In light of this "local rule" then it must be "known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the flower bed before you can claim free relief?

So I guess at the tee-box MC should claim "ball bounced off cart path an into flower bed" last point crossed at so-and-so. Then all at the tee box must agree. If another player says he doesn't agree or that the ball could have bounced anywhere else, then there is doubt and it should be a lost ball.

Yah... anyway, MC will know very sure that I will disagree with him and insist that he finds the ball before he can claim free relief.... Smile
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novicegolfer
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:04 am

There's 2 conditions that need to be satisfied in order to invoke R 25-1c.

Firstly, when it is a Local Rule clarifying the status of flower beds. If yes, a player whose ball may be lost in such area and may obtain relief without penalty. If no, his is lost. Not all flower beds are treated as abnormal ground condition.

Second condition is that it MUST BE VIRTUALLY certain that the ball has gone into such area if there is a Local Rule explicitly defines flower beds as AGC; or otherwise, it is deemed to be lost.

My next question is what happen if a player dropped and played a substituted ball from the area where his original ball last cross the margin where R25-1c is inapplicable.
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lennylim
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PostSubject: Re: Free Relief from Flower Bed???   Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:42 am

novicegolfer wrote:
There's 2 conditions that need to be satisfied in order to invoke R 25-1c.

Firstly, when it is a Local Rule clarifying the status of flower beds. If yes, a player whose ball may be lost in such area and may obtain relief without penalty. If no, his is lost. Not all flower beds are treated as abnormal ground condition.

Second condition is that it MUST BE VIRTUALLY certain that the ball has gone into such area if there is a Local Rule explicitly defines flower beds as AGC; or otherwise, it is deemed to be lost.

My next question is what happen if a player dropped and played a substituted ball from the area where his original ball last cross the margin where R25-1c is inapplicable.

If R25-1c is inapplicable, means that the ball is deemed lost, and the player has to take a stroke and distance penalty. If he drop and play a sub ball instead, then its also a 2 stroke penalty in strokeplay or lose the hole in matchplay, right? Or would the player be deemed to be playing from the wrong place?

My other question is how is it deemed VIRTUALLY CERTAIN that the ball has gone into such AGC area? Do ALL playing partner/flight mates have to agree? Or just self declare?
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