From the other thread...

lennylim wrote:

mUAr_cHEe wrote: to clarify the cheat part. I tot ball in flower bed equals to free drop. shotah clarified that must find ball, then can free drop. so it was lost ball for me. par become double bogey. U guys played at MBGC rite? i also thot flower beds there are free relief. I remember the flower bed areas say free relief under rule 25-1 or something. Is this the correct rule to apply? Rule 25-1 c. Ball in Abnormal Ground Condition Not Found It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward an abnormal ground condition is in such a condition. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1. If it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. If he elects to do so, the spot where the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition must be determined and, for the purpose of applying this Rule, the ball is deemed to lie at this spot and the player must proceed as follows: (i) Through the Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot through the green, the player may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(i). (ii) In a Bunker: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot in a bunker, the player may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(ii). (iii) In a Water Hazard (including a Lateral Water Hazard): If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot in a water hazard, the player is not entitled to relief without penalty. The player must proceed under Rule 26-1. (iv) On the Putting Green: If the ball last crossed the outermost limits of the abnormal ground condition at a spot on the putting green, the player may substitute another ball without penalty and take relief as prescribed in Rule 25-1b(iii).

From my understanding of these words,

"f it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in an abnormal ground condition, the player may take relief under this Rule. "

Example is that today everyone saw me tee off, the ball bounced off the cart path and went into the flower bed.

Since we are all certain and saw the ball go in there, I guess i am entitled to relief?


Pls correct me if i am wrong. Or is there any over-riding rule that says that we must be able to take back our original ball for free-relief.


I remember another story about a guy demanding free relief because he can see where his ball is. But he cannot take it, because it is down in a 3 metre deep drain.

Yah... need to clarify this, if this is true, then I have also been cheated in previous games. MC, sorry if you got a free relief cos i thought that the lost ball rule take precidence.

if i recall correctly, the ball must be retrievable to be entitled to relief. Otherwise, everyone will tee off into flower bed (intentional or otherwise) and get free relief

Any golf coaches on this forum care to comment?

i agree with ghoonk ... the ball must be found to be entitled to free lift ... else its lost ball ..

no problem. i just want to clarify as well so that i do not make a fool out of myself again.

i some more say "par" so loudly today.

i'm also not sure. was also taught that if ball go into FB and cannot be found, then free drop. If can be seen, cannot be retrieved, then still free drop. If cannot be seen, then who can say if the ball really ended up inside flower bed, then how to declare free drop?

really hoping a pro can comment on this too

the crux of the matter is actually whether or not the ball is deemed to be definitely in the flowerbed or not.

if found in flowerbed, relief and play without penalty

if not found in flowerbed,

1. flightmates all agreed that ball is in flowerbed, but unable to find, drop without penalty

2. flightmates do not know, or agree that ball is in flowerbed, and unable to find, then deemed lost ball, play with penalty.

otherwise, abovementioned scenario is subject to abuse. if i know right side has got a flowerbed, and it doesn't matter if i find it, as long as it heads in the general direction of flowerbed, i will just whack the ball with all my might, say it is in flowerbed without finding the ball, and drop, gain distance as well as free drop.

anyway, i heard this from a pro, and i am only contributing here cos i witnessed muar chee cheating today, so i must prevent him from cheating further.

My 2 cents

Definition of Abnormal Ground Conditions is:

An “abnormal ground condition” is any casual water, ground under repair or
hole, cast or runway on the course made by a burrowing animal, a reptile
or a bird.

You would have to check the score card local rules to see whether gardens beds are regarded as GUR. If so then I believe MC is entitled to free relief as it is certain that the ball did finish in the garden bed.

I am no rules guru so I maybe wrong!

I guess this is where the grey area comes into it and the integrity of the player and his playing partners

In order to apply this Rule, it must
be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the abnormal
ground condition. In the absence of such knowledge or certainty,
the player must proceed under Rule 27-1

I will leave it to you boys to argue that one out

from wat i do know, ball must be found in the flower ball b4 u can claim free relief...

however, ONLY at mbgc, there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to lookk for ball to claim free relief....... next time i go take pics of the signboard

but for elsewhere like NSRCC, u need to find the ball in the flower bed.......

Rage also told me that the ball must be found before a free drop applies.... did he cheated me?

Interesting!
I'm very bad with golf rules.

I always thought that to claim free relief you need to find the ball, but slinger mentioned that "there is a sign that state that u dun need to go inside flower bed to look for ball to claim free relief"

In light of this "local rule" then it must be "known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the flower bed before you can claim free relief?

So I guess at the tee-box MC should claim "ball bounced off cart path an into flower bed" last point crossed at so-and-so. Then all at the tee box must agree. If another player says he doesn't agree or that the ball could have bounced anywhere else, then there is doubt and it should be a lost ball.