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 Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping

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pushslice
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PostSubject: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:42 pm

fellow GR-ers and Pros, wonder if you can help me....

I know bounce helps in the sand. However, how do you use bounce in chipping and pitching?

My wedges loft/bounce are 50/8, 56/14, 60/10. I use the 50 wedge for chipping and pitching with roll, 56 for sand shots and from the rough and the 60 for high pitches. I don't have distance control on flop shots and try to avoid it. My divots are deep/short, hence I consider my self a digger (in wedge fitting terms).

If i use my 56 wedge for chipping, then i'd skull/blade it. Is that because of the high bounce? I chip well with the 50 deg.

how does opening the face of a club with a high bounce (>10 deg) influence impact on grass?

i read there are wedge grinds that allow the leading edge to be low on the ground when opening the face. How does that help?

thks so much!
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Birdman
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:59 pm

Bounce essentially works the same in the sand or out, it prevents the club from digging in too much, often working hand in hand with sole width, which is why the sand wedge has a wider sole and more bounce.

The bounce of a sand wedge does cause the leading edge to sit above the ground versus a pitching or lob wedge, especially so when setting the hands even or behind the clubhead at address (maximum bounce is achieved), possibly causing sculls and blades, but it is not entirely the fault of the bounce, more of the set up position and where the hands are relative to the clubhead (forward, even, behind). I chip all the time with my sand wedge to check or run the ball with no such problem.

Chip with your SW and hold the position immediately after impact and check the position of your left wrist, if the back of your left wrist does not form a straight line with your forearm (bowed), then you have flipped your wrist through impact. Or see if the handle of the club is pointing to your left side (correct) or right side (flipped hands). A drill to help is to wear your watch on your left hand, then insert something rigid like a pen or short ruler so half extends up your forearm and the other half extends down the back of your left hand. It should be impossible to flip your wrists through impact.

C, S, or any other grinds as they name them, are just different methods of achieving the same effect. Opening the face usually increases bounce with the traditional sole grind. To get the leading edge lower to the ground on opening the face, the bounce on the back end of the wedge towards the heel is ground away, hence the term "grind". The different grinds just make a wedge more versatile in various ground conditions, and are usually more useful in the hands of player with good touch and understands the basics of hand, clubface, and set-up positions. And of course bounce.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 1:24 am

hi birdman, that makes a lot of sense..i may have put my hands behind the ball when using the SW coz that's how I usually use SW in the sand. I may even flipped it to keep the face open even after impact, to try to get additional spin, which is probably unnecessary. Currently I'm just a one trick pony on chipping i.e. the low chip and run with a gw or pw. I'd struggle when there is little green between my ball and the hole, or when chipping to a downhill slope.

Thank you for the tip! I'll report back once I can do the chip and check...
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:41 am

More important than loft is clubhead speed in generating spin, hence the need to be confident and a tad aggressive in swinging through (not in attacking the pin) with soft hands and wrist hinge on the backswing. A shorter rhythmic backswing and longer followthrough helps to ensure your clubhead zips through the ball.

Most times we as amateurs take a longer backswing and decelerate into impact, either from fear of overshooting the pin/green or subconsciously realizing we have taken too long a stroke. And I've observed that relates back to the practice swing which most just swing the same length back and through no matter the distance or shot required. The practice swing is a rehearsal for the real swing, so we should visualise the ball flight, where exactly it lands and how much it rolls bearing in mind the break and slope of the green, then rehearse the shot at hand while looking at the hole to feel the strength and finesse needed, not just go through the motions.

When there is little green or a a downhill slope, you need to either send it high and check it on the green with spin, an advanced stroke that requires lots of practice, or flop it high with a longer slower swing so the ball lands and releases gently to the hole (a little easier to execute).

But for all wedge shots, a landing spot between the hole and you must be picked, imperative to getting the ball next to the hole or in. Many just look at the hole, swing, and the ball lands at the hole and rolls way past. The only time to see the hole as the landing spot is when you can spin the ball back into it, and how many of us are good enough to do that? Observe your playing mates and yourself when you play next time, and see where their chips land and you'll see what I mean.

The three basic wedge shot anyone needs in their arsenal starting out are the chip and run (any club in the bag), chip and check (SW, LW), and the high lob (LW). Be comfortable in executing these first before trying out variations or you could confuse yourself further.

The wedges are the only clubs in the bag where you mess around with your set-up, grip, rhythm, and loft, every single time you use them. So you need to understand what outcome each of these many variables working in combination with each other will produce. And the only way to do that is to experiment and play around with a heightened sense of awareness of your positions for each, or you'll be able to produce the shot one time and not the next, cos one variable was out without you realizing it. All the great shotmakers messed around with their clubs trying all kinds of funny shots, Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and Seve Ballesteros did. Tiger and Phil both have a good combination of feel and the technical, Seve was too much feel, probably why he couldn't recapture the magic in his later years cos he didn't understand how he did it.

Look up Phil's short game instructional vid on YouTube, some of it is there. And watch that light bulb in your head turn on!


Last edited by Birdman on Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jhan18
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:03 am

the great bunker players like ballesteros and player had their hands behind the ball at set up in the bunker. If you watch Els, Donald and some of the top players, they do have theirs behind the ball as well. The reason being is that it would enable them to slide the club under the ball, resulting in a higher, softer shot. However it's rather dangerous if not applied correctly. There are 3 very important factors that determines the outcome of a bunker shot.
1. The point where the club enters the sand.
2. Sand type
3.Set up.

Very hard to hit a quality bunker shot if you can't get these right.

Other the other hand, Birdman has actually given you a classic drill to do. Very good. I'd like to know your thoughts on chipping, what goes through your mind and what do you try to do when you chip. I think a lot of people get the swing or other golf fundamentals wrong because they have a wrong or poor mental imagery of what they want to do. Another is topping or duffing. I've helped so many who just because they have duffed one they fear that shot forever.
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:13 am

Pushslice, Justin is the right man for you, I watched him on execute an impossible bunker shot from the 18th on Warren. Ball semi plugged on the face of a pot bunker with little green to work with. He had to contort his legs to assume a stance one leg in and one leg out, body angled almost 45 degrees, he blasted sand everywhere, most of which flew past the hole, then the ball followed, landing softly before the hole then trickling softly past. Almost in some more!

FANTASTIC!!!

Swing

Cheers Jump


Last edited by Birdman on Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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jhan18
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:16 am

Birdman wrote:
Pushslice, Justin is the right man for you, I watched him on execute an impossible bunker shot from the 18th on Warren. Ball semi plugged on the face of a pot bunker with little green to work with. He had to contort his legs to assume a stance one leg in and one leg out, body angled almost 45 degrees, he blasted sand everywhere, most of which flew past the hole, then the ball followed, landing softly past the hole.

FANTASTIC!!!

Swing

Cheers Jump

I didn't know you were there when i hit that shot Birdman. Ok well I don't exactly know who you are. Yes bunkers is an area where I do well in particular. If you did pick up the Golf tabloid some time last May you would have found an article i wrote on bunker play.
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Raquel
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:18 am

Hi Birdman

I'm very bad in chipping, short game, thanks for your online instruction.... HELP
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Birdman
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:42 am

Haha... you know me Justin, I just don't put my name here.

Raquel, Ur most welcome, I just regurgitate what I assimilate.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:21 pm

jhan18 wrote:


Other the other hand, Birdman has actually given you a classic drill to do. Very good. I'd like to know your thoughts on chipping, what goes through your mind and what do you try to do when you chip. I think a lot of people get the swing or other golf fundamentals wrong because they have a wrong or poor mental imagery of what they want to do. Another is topping or duffing. I've helped so many who just because they have duffed one they fear that shot forever.

hi justin

i aspire to do two chip style; first, the chip and run, i hit with a firm left wrist, ball would launch low and roll. The second is the chip and check, which I often mess up. Hope to launch ball higher and stop after one or two bounce. My thoughts on the second is to keep my left wrist facing upwards after impact. I'd open my stance more on the second, and swing out to in. Very similar to a sand shot but from grass.

I pm you for our short game session at warren. Looks like I will need a couple at least. I need help in the bunkers too.
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:44 am

Err... sorry to burst your bubble pushslice, but left wrist facing upwards after impact very hard to do the one hop and stop move.

Good move going to JHan. Let us know what new arsenal of shots you finally end up with, and watch your score plummet. Have fun.
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pushslice
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:29 am

i know birdman, I messed this shot often on practice, and I dont use on course. It's only an aspiration Very Happy

My first pro (spore pga too) told me about this technique, of course it is not one taught to beginners or found in most golf mags. He was taught this chipping by a Taiwan tour player. Then I found a similar lesson by Dave Stockton on youtube. Look it up, i think title was "Dave Stockton Chipping Philosophy". He actually flipped his left wrist. Looks easy but damn hard to do.

Then I saw Chapchai chipped in 2-3 times at the last Johor Open, barely 2 meters between him and the hole. Beauty. Gotta learn how to do that, because I do more chipping than lag putting on course, my balls are on the apron more often.

Will give first hand report from the Justin Han Academy in 2-3 weeks.
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Ssquirrel
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:38 am

Birdman wrote:
Err... sorry to burst your bubble pushslice, but left wrist facing upwards after impact very hard to do the one hop and stop move.

Can explain why? I thought left wrist face upwards will maintain the angle?
what's the best way to check the ball then?
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Birdman
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:42 am

Don't forget, all the guys you mentioned are pros who live, breathe and eat golf, as they say on the Golf Channel "These guys are good!" We don't have their strength, skills, and motor memory, and will find it difficult to replicate the more advanced shots they do.

For us mere mortals, the "KISS" philosophy works better.

Anyway, what you are asking of yourself is to fly before you can even walk or run. How to execute the type of shots they pull off, when we don't even understand and unable to execute the basic wedge shots effectively right?

Me still learning and long long way to go too, even though I have been scrambling for many many years. But one thing I've learnt is to execute the lowest risk shot, and the one you are most comfortable pulling off. Bearing in mind you already have low, mid, and high trajectory shots in your arsenal. Part two is all in the head, visualisation, landing spot, etc, etc....

You are on the way already by visiting Jhan. All the best!
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Duval_S
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PostSubject: Re: Use of Bounce in pitching and chipping   Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:45 am

wah...this is so chim......I am still at the beginner stage.....i just aim short and then leave the roll to the green gods to determine my fate.....
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