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 golf instructor MIA during lesson

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Seiko
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:06 pm

alvin7379 wrote:
Actually, most teaching pros offer trial lessons which allows you to determine if their teaching method suits you. Regardless of the number of days the teaching pro had for training (they would anyway probably had golfing & teaching experience prior to teaching officially), there are coaches that can teach well.

I personally feels that a good coach should be able to:
- observe your swing and identify area of improvements
- understand the ability of each student and teach them within their means instead of one size fits all approach
- have the ability to translate and relate to you his instructions
- friendly and approachable so their student will not hesitate to ask questions
- help you set targets to gauge your progress
- and of cos... be responsible of his commitment to the students as we ARE your customers! Razz

A teaching pro having attended a 1yr course need not necessarily be a good coach as compared to one with a 2 days cert.

If in doubt, you can always ask around in this forum for good teaching pros with good reviews... I'm sure there is plentiful here Smile

I think the MIA pro mentioned can perform to the above mentioned items! But his style is quite "different" in a way that he expects u to come to him for any problems encountered and he does not stay with u or the grp throughout the 1hr lesson. He will assess your swing, correct your mistakes, assess your corrected swing again, reinforce his ideas to u and if ok, he will leave u alone. By the next lesson if u commit the same mistakes, he is quite patient to advice u one more time.

At one time, I was having problem with my 7i! I called him straightaway and told him abt my problem. At the lesson day, I was 1hr earlier and practicing on my own. He came early and saw my problems. He rectified it on the spot and showed me the basic things again. By the time he finished correcting my mistakes. I looked at my watch! There is another 15mins more to our agreed timing 6.45pm (my lesson time is 7pm). My friends just arrived for the lesson. As usual, he assessed all our swing again and patiently corrected my friend's mistakes from 7-8pm. So to me, this pro is still ok!

But at the green I had to agree with some of his students is that he sld spent more time with us instead of just 2-3holes!
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:17 pm

USTGF actually do conduct lessons on teaching and correcting the swing.. not too sure about PGA...

How good the coach will be depends on the coach himself and not the length of the course...

all this certifications are only the beginning, from there its all up to himself to improve
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:51 pm

I'm a newbie to this forum but in the last month or so, I have already seen a number of conflicts and rants. One thing I do not understand is that if one is unhappy with another person, e.g. in this case, someone is not happy with his/her coach, why not just speak to the coach about the 'problem' instead of coming to a public forum and knifing the guy in the back?

It is not our place to decide if that teaching pro's teaching style is or is not effective for other people. If it is not effective for me or I simply do not like how he 'abandons' me during a lesson or on the course during a playing lesson, then I would have an open discussion about how I feel about his style

The way I see it,

If you plan to continue with that pro, an open and mature discussion would allow the relationship to progress in a positive manner. Or the two of you can agree to disagree on the style of coaching and move on in a cordial fashion.

If you do not plan to continue with that pro, then being upfront about it won't change a thing, especially if you think he's going to be defensive about the whole thing.

It is not a matter of breaking someone else's rice bowl -- in this case, his style of coaching may be working for some people, while others find his attitude poor. To each his own, and sitting behind a screen and keyboard, there are many people who suddenly gain the courage to say what they would not say to the people they have an issue with. To me, that isn't the way to conduct a civilized relationship, and I'm sure many of us would not like to have this done to us.

At the end of the day, it's your money. Even if you decide that that pro's coaching style is not what you are looking for, it's a lesson learned, and no one is forcing anyone to go to him for coaching. If he is good, he will have his own stable of students; if he is not, it will just be a matter of time before he either wakes up and makes an appropriate change, or he goes out of business.
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Straightman
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:59 pm

Was just introduced to this forum by a friend. Such instructors as experienced by Jeron can be anywhere, from any teaching organization, near or far. I was personally taught by a PGA certified pro many years ago, and the basic to the grip was wrong. That was 20 years ago when he was just starting out. He is still around today, and I heard one of his students is now in the national squad. Good for him. He has come of age. We need to give every new coach a chance, and until he has been proven otherwise, we should all spare the running down of any teaching organizations in general.

At the same time, for those who think too highly of their teaching skills, spare a thought for yourself and others. If you are truly that good, I should be seeing you carry the national flag at the next Olympic, or maybe sometimes at the Golf Channel?

Actually I think I know who that instructor is. I might just have a word with him so hopefully he can change. Otherwise, good luck to him. If this contnues, I just might see the end of his teaching career.
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gomjgo
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:17 pm

It takes both hands to clap. A good coach can't provide much help to a lazy student who hardly train. A lousy coach criticize by many can still produce a hard working tour player.
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:24 pm

3 more article to share. One is slightly fairer in pale comparison to my earlier article but nonetheless a different perspective and the others is on developing teaching skills.

http://golfmanagersassociation.com/opportunity-abounds-for-us-golf-managers-assocation-usgtf-members/
http://golfmanagersassociation.com/developing-teaching-skills/
http://golfmanagersassociation.com/thoughts-on-lesson-planning/

Nevertheless, it leaves you to do some thinking before you take your next class. PGA certified or USGTF certified? It could just be as well as it doesnt matter because if you dont have the genuine interest to improve, there will not be any result and you will be back to [] 1.

http://golfmanagersassociation.com/genuine-improvement-requires-an-investment-in-time/
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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:47 pm

Found another interesting thread in forum elsewhere in another country that objectively argue abt the difference between GTF and PGA in an interesting approach using car mechanics. Click if you want to read it!

Sunny,
Suggest you read it before you decide to label something as blatant lie or offensive, there are truth in perspective and you have first give people opportunity to read/argue them first and let them decide for themselves. In my last post, there is no golfing teachers being accused of wrong doing nor did I finger point. I do not see anything wrong if its from blog or forum. Its awareness that I am trying to make. A lot of golfers here will want to make investment of their time and $$$. Its only right that they know what they are getting into and with what.

To be any country PGA rated, these people spend years of their time to perfect their skills and learn. There are also sacrifices that they made and earn the level of qualification. Where GTF are of different category and which involves lesser commitment and passing requirements. I leave you with a Quotie in the link - The bottom line still comes down to it's the person not the certification which makes them a good golf teacher but it's the training in which that person was taught which is what will make them a great golf teacher.

I leave it to your clicking to decide whether to delete or not.
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:01 pm

Khokar, it is not about pointing at a particular golf pro. Now you are criticising an entire school. It isn't fair and responsible at all. Someone's rant from a blog is not a truth and should not be cited as truth to substantiate any attacks on any school. Similarly, I am sure you do not like it if I were to say you come from a lousy school cos you cannot make it to so and so uni and you are therefore cheating the society and your bosses. That would have been irresponsible if I do that.

Similarly, the pros are vying a trade and it is really not fair to make such comments. Such irresponsible comments may lead to some new members who didn't know better to avoid certain pros simply because they came from usgtf. Some of them are really good coaches.

For the record, tendy from the forum was certified by them too and so is Mrs Khee the mum of JL, frosTEE. I may not be their students but I have heard good things about them from forum members.

Similarly, I have heard lousy comments on some pros who are under spga. It is the individuals that determine whether they make gd teachers. Attacking the school with no basis is really irresponsible. If you really think that what you have done is very correct and responsible, I shall not argue with you but bear in mind you have to bear full consequences for your remarks. We let the members decide for themselves.

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Seiko
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:25 pm

ghoonk wrote:
I'm a newbie to this forum but in the last month or so, I have already seen a number of conflicts and rants. One thing I do not understand is that if one is unhappy with another person, e.g. in this case, someone is not happy with his/her coach, why not just speak to the coach about the 'problem' instead of coming to a public forum and knifing the guy in the back?

It is not our place to decide if that teaching pro's teaching style is or is not effective for other people. If it is not effective for me or I simply do not like how he 'abandons' me during a lesson or on the course during a playing lesson, then I would have an open discussion about how I feel about his style

The way I see it,

If you plan to continue with that pro, an open and mature discussion would allow the relationship to progress in a positive manner. Or the two of you can agree to disagree on the style of coaching and move on in a cordial fashion.

If you do not plan to continue with that pro, then being upfront about it won't change a thing, especially if you think he's going to be defensive about the whole thing.

It is not a matter of breaking someone else's rice bowl -- in this case, his style of coaching may be working for some people, while others find his attitude poor. To each his own, and sitting behind a screen and keyboard, there are many people who suddenly gain the courage to say what they would not say to the people they have an issue with. To me, that isn't the way to conduct a civilized relationship, and I'm sure many of us would not like to have this done to us.

At the end of the day, it's your money. Even if you decide that that pro's coaching style is not what you are looking for, it's a lesson learned, and no one is forcing anyone to go to him for coaching. If he is good, he will have his own stable of students; if he is not, it will just be a matter of time before he either wakes up and makes an appropriate change, or he goes out of business.

Bro ghoonk, I think jeron is a newbie and he was unsure its the norm when his pro MIA during the lesson. So he is gathering everyone's feedback! Jeron has spoken to his pro directly about their concerns and hopefully things works well for them.

Jeron's original intention means no harm! Very Happy
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eiji
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:35 pm

in this day and age, information and mis-information is both power and a curse.

some pple let reviews determine all their purchases, whether its golf clubs, home AV, tech gadgets, handphones, cameras, furniture, baby stuff, restaurant, etc etc

there's no end to the debate, we are all individuals with specific tastes or unique physique and particularities. What's good for someone or suitable for someone may not be good or suitable for another. I think the point sunny is trying to make is not to generalise, my personal opinion is that there is no harm sharing information, so the links KK provided are great for that.

conclusion is you have to decide for yourself the information you find both here in this forum or anywhere else in the internet whether is trustworthy and unbiased.

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Khorkar
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:35 pm

Sunny, you made a few assumptions and i like to correct them. Yes i heard of Tendy and visited him had 2hr session with him, in which i also had many good things to say. Also, I have heard that JL/YL mum, a exceptional teacher.

We didnt attack the school and we didnt even had the chance to criticize it. There is nothing wrong getting if the person is from USGTF or PGA or PGAA, it is the foundation and how it is make in play. We are not even criticizing if they are bad, good or evil, the point that I am making to my GR friends is we are paying $$$, have to know what it is and what to expect.

Honestly, I can't understand GR anymore, since when we grew intolerance towards criticisms and challenging ideas, even just talking about golf alone.
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:44 am

Go read the rant again. If you think calling them ppl who can't make it to uni then just go anyhow school, can't get into PGA just go usgtf etc and remarks like how to make quick bucks by cheating your students is fair and responsible. Then unfortunately I can't understand you.

Go read your post again.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this certainly sounds like an uncalled for personal attack on a school that warrants moderation.

Khorkar wrote:
Damn! Here's an article on USGTF Instructor.

Can't become a PGA Professional? Get USGTF certification!

What happens if you're not smart enough to be accepted by a university? Join a community college! Voila! Stick around for a few years, drink lots of beer, ogle chicks and attend class once in a while and, by God, you can have a shiny little piece of paper with a gold stamp saying you are an educated person.

Want to have the "ultimate" career, giving golfers lessons, making up to $100 an hour while basking in the sun and hanging out on a beautiful golf course? Well, normally, one would want some sort of legitimate certification, stating they have some qualifications so that you can feel confident that the instruction they are receiving is indeed worthwhile.

And that's why thousands of golfers patronize their local PGA Professionals.These people had to pass a fairly rigorous and time-consuming procedure to obtain PGA certification. These guys (and women) have to do more than just swing a good stick. They have to go through loads of classes and pass coursework to obtain their certification. Passing the requirements is not enough for the PGA of America. PGA Professionals have to maintain their points each year by attending classes on rules, teaching and even classes pertaining to business. PGA Professionals lose their certifications for failing to stay up to date with what the PGA wants. Like certified public accountants, classes are an ongoing fact of life. And by the way, the title is PGA Professional, not "golf pro" or "club pro!" They've earned it, so use it.

And, yes, these folks have to demonstrate they can play some golf.

Hey! Want to teach duffers, make a few bucks and bypass this mess and timeconsuming process? Just go to The United States Golf Teachers Federation (USGTF) and sign on the dotted line. Hang out for a week, show you can shoot under 83 for 72 holes and pay $150 and you too can be a "certified" golf instructor. PGA requirements are time consuming. Plus, they have requirements. The USGTF is much cleaner, simple and easy. Can't cut it at an accredited university? No problem! Just find a community college and if you can pay your tuition, they will even throw in a steak dinner.

There are many, many great golf teachers in this world who are not certified by anyone. Golf is not rocket science and God knows that it doesn't take a great intelligence to be a PGA Professional. But when you do get lessons from a PGA-certified instructor, he is at least an individual who is serious about the game and serious about teaching. This person has decided it is a livelihood and is willing to go through the steps of keeping certification. When you see someone who has some funny bunny certificate that says he is a "golf instructor," take it with a grain of salt. Their standards are not the same as the PGA.

And that guy who couldn't hack it with the PGA probably is sending his son
to a community college.

Rebel

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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:41 am

ghoonk,

I can't fault Jeron for his doing, that's what is forum is abt. If he would have know it's uncommon for a coach to go MIA in his lesson most of the time, he would not even post this topic. For a coach to go missing in 9 holes when he's supposed to be there, Jeron have every right to let GR members know his real life suffering. At least the name of the coach is not annouced publicly. RESPECT HAVE TO BE EARNED, NOT GIVEN.

To have 3 newbie members who stand up for this coach suddenly makes the entire issue feel fishy. Sin Ming instructors, this is the power of internet - don finger point a newbie who's having his begginer lesson for being lazy and back stabber. U should fault ppl for PM for his name, but then again the right of a golf forum is to be able to discuss any topic we encounter in a properly conducted way, they have to the right to know who are we talking abt and judge the entire issue with their own opinions. At least they are not finger-pointing at Jeron who is new to golf. That is not a nice way to treat a beginner - to name him lazy, back-stabber, etc. Why bother to read this post anyway since u are not interested to know who this MIA instructor is?

For those good Sin Ming instructors, just treat ur students the proper way and by word of mouth and refferals, u will get what u give. Although I have know the name of this instructor - but this is for u " WHat goes ard comes ard" Don blame it on the person who u have misused his trust when it comes ard.

just my 2 cents worth of thoughts,
a lazy yet passionate golf lover becoz without ppl like me, golf instructors will have to find new job. "At the end of the day, it's our money. Even if we decide that that pro's coaching style is not what we are looking for, it's a lesson EARNED, and no one is forcing the golf instructor to have back their money." quoted from Ghoonk. Sorry, I just lost it when i see injustice. I'm a nice chap actually. ; )
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:33 am

Smile

I'll just say this la: If I met up with some of you and for whatever reason felt that you did something that I didn't like, and went behind your back to tell all my friends that you are XXXX and YYYY and ZZZZ instead of taking this up with you directly (who knows, it could have just been a misunderstanding, right?), then I'm sure you wouldn't like it, right?

Just as well as there may be some people who don't like how this coach MIAs during lessons, maybe some people have no issue with it, and personally, I don't like my coach pointing out this and that on every swing I make -- tips and pointers take time to groove into the swing, and bloody nagging me to watch this and that just annoys the f*** out of me.

In the end, what doesn't work for some people may just work for others. Clearly, if this guy is still in business, then it's obviously working for some people. If these people don't like his style of coaching but still continue with him, then that's their decision, not ours to make

Let people make their own decisions. A fair way to approach this topic would be to advice people to interview their coach before taking on lessons, or trying out a lesson before committing further. Ultimately, one just needs to know how to broach the subject with the parties concerned instead of bit**ing about it in a forum where the guy isn't even aware that he's being criticized. His ears must have been burning for the last couple of days Very Happy
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Seiko
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:32 am

One single interview or trying out one lesson is not gd enough to gauge one pro's commitment. They will be at their best behaviour during interview n trial lesson in order to secure the business. Word of mouth is still the best way!
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:02 am

In my view the best way to look for coaches is to spend some time watching them teach as well as taking a trial session which all good coaches should provide. You would not want to sign up for the lesson & paid the fee to find the coach MIA during lessons or not being able to booked for future lessons. We must always remember we paid upfront & if we can't get to book for the next lesson we have no one to turn to!!! cheers cheers
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:52 am

This post was about the teaching style of a particular coach. And I know he is not even associated with USGTF anymore. It dragged on to become a comparison between USGTF and PGA. Totally unnecessary. PGA has their own criteria for passing their Pros. USGTF-Singapore branch also has their own playing criteria similar to the PGA 'B' Pro standard. Most PGA Pros aspire to make a living playing in. The GTF people wants to teach. No where have I heard any GTF coach bragging or claiming they can play better than PGA coach. On the same token, I have not heard any PGA coach bragging he is a better coach than a GTF coach.

A real measure of the success of a good golf teacher is how popular he is with students and how long he has been in this business. Like in ANY business, the Cons and the bluffs will all self disintegrate in a matter of time.

If we are learned enough, let us focus on the issue at hand and refrain from unnecessary attack on any other coaches PGA or others.

As for Sunny, I am new here. I think he is doing a great job. Keep it up. You will soon learn moderating a forum like this can be quite.......'trying'.
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Seiko
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:02 pm

So where is he associated now?
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Straightman
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:21 pm

My Seiko Fren,

It is not important where he is associated with. Problem is 'HIM' not his association. It is thoroughly unfair to all his associates if we link him to them. Within his own organization there are also responsible coaches. It is just him and we should just stick to that.
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sunny
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:34 pm

Well said Straightman!

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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:56 pm

ROFL
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:29 pm

Agreed.

But doesn't that happen with anyone else in other circumstances? I see this in job interviews, first dates, first time meeting new golf kakis, etc etc, and so what? Are lessons forever? Or for a certain number of lessons?

And during the course of the programme, are students gagged so that they cannot speak honestly and directly with people? Or does golf have an ability to turn people into deaf mutes during lessons. As the common saying goes, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Problem in the world today is that too many people choose to handle conflict hiding behind keyboards and now taking direct action, and in this case, I mean speaking with the pro involved directly

Going behind someone's back is cowardly and childish. Grow some balls and have a word with the pro concerned. Don't use a public forum to smear a person, a brand, or a company under the guise of 'freedom of speech' and 'a forum is used to express 'opinions'.

On a related note, how many years has this pro been in business, and how many students does he have?
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:36 pm

Ghoonk, i like your comments. May be the only problem lies in our character and being speaking our mind and make it heard. Dare to Speak Out.
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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:20 pm

Khokar, we would like ppl to express themselves too. But do bear in mind that some comments may be taken as personal attacks which is why a numbers of users are very concerned abt the ranting post. If you read it again you will get what I mean. That's why I advise everyone to be sensitive

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PostSubject: Re: golf instructor MIA during lesson   Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:36 pm

how many people here will 'confront/question' the coach if he's seem uninterested to teach? I mean in the grey area- Assume you just don't feel right (e.g. MIA once a while, asking u to go xx club so he has commission but then disappear after tee off, walk over to chat with mei mei every now an then during lesson...). I will not do it. Why? Money already paid. Why spoil the relationship. Just try to get whatever i can learn from him lor (he did teach). No point facing a black face or feel uneasy during the lessons. Not confronting him is not cowardly. it's salvaging best value from bad situation.

just because i didn't confront him i can't rant here? we can only say facts and good things here? no opinion allowed? posting here without confronting him is not cowardly. it's part of reason why people visit forum.

just my opinion.
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