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 How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?

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golf_snowman
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:36 am

mUAr_cHEe wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
hi guys ...

Topic OFF ...haha !!

MC's ability, i have no doubt at all...

can we go back to the topic ?...keke

snowman

sorry boss... but snowman... what are u trying to achieve here? honestly this is a topic that i also have been wondering.

i like to play 70S in my driver... then he plays 60X...
I like my irons firm. PX5.5... then my idol X100s... i think... or S300s....

it is working well for both of us... or at least very established in my idol's case.... but still...


hmmm.... *in deep thought* *donut*... mmmm.....

haha...good to see that...

guess there is 1 person can provide the answer...and he is still waiting, dunno waiting for what ?

haha !!

snowman[left]
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:36 am

TeD... rule of thumb again... usually the heavier the shaft, the stiffer it gets.


but with technology these days... does not seem to be the case anymore...
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:39 am

mUAr_cHEe wrote:
If you are not looking for the usual "go-to-a-clubfitter" advise... then...

rule of thumb here for most average folk is the faster your swing speed, the heavier shaft you should get.

But exactly how heavy it should be? Well, go to a cl..... okok. u want some other answer?

first of all,

how are your shot shapes now?
What kind of distances are you hitting with your clubs?
what kind of ball flight would you like to achieve?
what are looking for exactly?
increasing distances? or controlling dispersion? You can never find the best of these 2 worlds, but you can find a healthy compromise (balanced).

There are many kind of shafts out there with different specifications.

For TT series, there are R200 to R400, S200 to S400 and X100 to X300. The alphabet obvious states the flex of each iron and the number represents the weight... yes there are lighter shafts that are stiffer than heavier ones. X100 is stiffer than S400 but the weight difference is only 2 to 4 grams difference.

am i confusing you already?




Master... am i selected to do more than strip grips and clean shafts now?

Haha... MC... I can tell you are desperate to get more 'meat' out of Eric... ROFL
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:42 am

golf_snowman wrote:
guess there is 1 person can provide the answer...

i am sure there is more than 1 guy who can provide the answer. it is just whether are the rest willing to share their knowledge as well?
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WaLau
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:46 am

let me try, and let DGman to mark my answere

Lighter Shaft for promoting faster swing speed
Heavy Shaft for promoting smoother swing

For a person who using his hip to generate power, able to hold and release the club somewhere just before impact, or someone who swing with a smooth tempo, good inside out swing path, can try using a lighter shaft to increase the club speed, hence increase distance.

For a person who generate his power from shoulder/arm during downswing, release the club much early, always unable to feel the right inside out swing path. Balls direction always inconsistence, can try using a heavy shaft to slow down the swing and promote a smoother swing, hence more consistence of balls angles of attack.

To make in simple, if one can achieve a more consistence angle of attack, use a lighter shaft to increase the distance

If one unable to achieve more consistence impact, angle of attack, use a heavy shaft to help

When one try both and still dont work, work out your swing.
If still dont work, Accept the LOFT issue.
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golf_snowman
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:46 am

mUAr_cHEe wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
guess there is 1 person can provide the answer...

i am sure there is more than 1 guy who can provide the answer. it is just whether are the rest willing to share their knowledge as well?

Hi bro

i have all these questions all because of that 1person loh...haha !!

definitely i believe there are many more who knows the answer, hoping to see more knowledge sharing here..hmm...[singing] "why am i waiting, why am i waiting".....keke

snowman[left]
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weesern
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:53 am

i guess its a blend of a few factors.

control, distance and feel.
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pocketace
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:15 pm

My understanding is that Weight is merely 1 element of the shaft selection
You need to look into other attributes like
- flex
- toque
- length
Get the best combination of the above to get an optimum ball flight, minimum disperson and optimal spin rate for your type of swing

I think quite hard to look at shaft weight in isolation. That is why, need to go to a fitter at the end of the day.
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:29 pm

golf_snowman wrote:
mUAr_cHEe wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
guess there is 1 person can provide the answer...

i am sure there is more than 1 guy who can provide the answer. it is just whether are the rest willing to share their knowledge as well?

Hi bro

i have all these questions all because of that 1person loh...haha !!

definitely i believe there are many more who knows the answer, hoping to see more knowledge sharing here..hmm...[singing] "why am i waiting, why am i waiting".....keke

snowman[left]
Before i try to answer... can i find out what sort of divots you make with your swing?
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:57 pm

JonL_TK wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
mUAr_cHEe wrote:
golf_snowman wrote:
guess there is 1 person can provide the answer...

i am sure there is more than 1 guy who can provide the answer. it is just whether are the rest willing to share their knowledge as well?

Hi bro

i have all these questions all because of that 1person loh...haha !!

definitely i believe there are many more who knows the answer, hoping to see more knowledge sharing here..hmm...[singing] "why am i waiting, why am i waiting".....keke

snowman[left]
Before i try to answer... can i find out what sort of divots you make with your swing?

hi

well, it depend what clubs I'm using. If I use PW, my divot can be quite deep. If I use 6, 7, 8 iron, divot are shallow and if I use hybrid, practically no clear divot. Does that answer ur question ?....keke

snowman
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:48 pm

my answer will be both scientific and related to the 4 big school of golf swing...

good try Walau....but you can be less specific about technique and look broader.....

Hint: look at 4 different players...

Brad Faxon, Ian Poulter, Stewark Cink and Mark O'Meara..

do you think they have the same swing?

if not what do you think is the big difference in their swing. now apply that swing thought to the golfers you know and you will probably find the first part of your puzzle.

DGman
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golf_snowman
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:54 pm

DGman wrote:
my answer will be both scientific and related to the 4 big school of golf swing...

good try Walau....but you can be less specific about technique and look broader.....

Hint: look at 4 different players...

Brad Faxon, Ian Poulter, Stewark Cink and Mark O'Meara..

do you think they have the same swing?

if not what do you think is the big difference in their swing. now apply that swing thought to the golfers you know and you will probably find the first part of your puzzle.

DGman

boss

too chim liao, i only know Ian Poulter, the other 3, i never heard before..how to compare huh ?

tell me the answer...if not, tonite i cannot sleep....keke

snowman
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DGman
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:12 pm

cannot sleep then watch more TV....i am going to sleep liao...

DGman
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WaLau
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:53 pm

when then you will tell us the answere?
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:26 am

Okay... now my turn to try...

01. - Angle of Attack (AoA)
Attack Angle (or Angle of Attack) is defined as the angle of the clubhead's path as it makes contact with the golf ball. A positive angle means the golfer is hitting “up” on the ball, while a negative value means the golfer is hitting “down” on the ball.

Hitting up on the ball at the correct angle can significantly improve a player’s distance on driver shots. Research by Golf Magazine with TrackMan technology shows that a flat hit (attack angle = 0) generates 14 fewer yards from a 90 mph swing than one that strikes the ball on the upswing. This research shows that if a golfer hits the ball on the upswing, he/she will hit longer drives with less spin.



02. - Heavy Shaft vs Light Shaft
The number one difference between graphite and steel shafts is their weight, so take for example a mass on a string would be the most effective way of delivering energy to the ball, but that would not give you much control, so this is the compromise.

Consider that a golf club is used as a rotating mass to impart energy to the golf ball.

If the weight were further from the head, the angular momentum, which is a function of the amount of mass rotating, but also of the distance of the mass from the center - from the 'grip' - would be less for a given speed, so, again for a given speed, the force imparted to the ball would be less,

Also, if the weight were higher, there would be losses in transferring the impact to the ball when the shaft flexed; that is, the shaft would still be flexed when the ball departed, leaving some of the energy of the club to be dissipated after the ball had 'left' - so the ball would not get the full 'hit'.

Therefore, If you're Tiger Woods, or if you swing a golf club as he does, your body will coil and uncoil during a golf swing so that you apply plenty of energy to the face of the golf club when it meets the ball. If your swing is this good and if you are this strong, you want a very stiff shaft so that every bit of energy you generate in your swing is delivered to the ball, and none is absorbed in making the shaft of the club bend and vibrate.

If, on the other hand, you do not have a Tiger Woods swing, then you can get a shaft with some flexibility to do some of the work of sheer muscle with a well-timed "whip" motion that stores energy from the top of the swing in a bent shaft, then releases it in time to deliver that energy to the ball.

03. - How to tell which shaft is for you?
To reduce spin rate, clubfitters primarily will find a lower lofted clubhead, a higher kick point clubshaft, a stiffer clubshaft, and a heavier clubshaft.

The same applies with irons as well. However with irons clubhead speed tends to play a bigger factor. The general rule is that the more of a 'snap release' the heavier, stiffer and higher kickpoint of a shaft the golfer should look to use. This is because it takes the golfer lesser handspeed to generate more clubhead speed. Two prototypical 'snap releases' are Hogan and Sergio Garcia, both of who have used heavy, stiff golf shafts.

OTOH, a more 'full sweep release' which creates a larger 'pulley' the golfer should look at more flexible and lighter shafts. Tom Watson is an example of using a full sweep release. Now, clubhead speed does play a factor.

But if say Hogan and Watson had the same clubhead speed, Watson should likely use a much lighter and more flexible shaft to allow him to generate that clubhead speed consistently.

Which i think sort of answers DGman's example of the 4 schools of swing!!!

*Disclaimer*
This are of my own opinion and what i have tried to pick up from club fitters throught out the years[u]
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:29 am

Wahhh... @_@''''

Headache... headache.... scratch
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:37 am

bravo...bravo....

cheers cheers

Cheers Jump

very well write up...finally someone can tell me what is AoA....haha!!

i think i should just go youtube and see how these 4 players swing their clubs...keke

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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:49 am

Good one Jonathan...

now for the four school of swing type, please refer to Golf Digest top 4 golf gurus.

all said and done, the relevance of matching swing type to equipment is not something that clubfitters practice. Having worked with instructors such as Paul Tudor, Tendy Tsao, Allen Kelly and others all with different ball striking, we are only beginning to use what's available on the TrackMan to aid us with finding the right shaft (weight, kick point and flex) for our customers.

Hint for AoA, it can be manipulated (increase or decrease) by the golfer (ball position, lie angle or by weight emphasis) or with the right shaft. however the fundamental swing type do not change.

if you look at a david leadbetter swing, it is almost a flat AoA finish (Ian Poulter, Michelle Wie), Hank Haney swing type (Nick Whatney, TW) is a bit more steep and it employ a quieter lower movment. One plane or On plane is beginning to gain recognition and popularity all over the world as an effective golf swing.

for us its still work in progress and we really have to do a lot more research, talk to teaching pros to better understand their school of thoughts and take the opportunity to measure their students swing characteristic for comparison.

DGman

i would also like to put on record that Tendy Tsao was instrumental in opening our eyes in this area of fitting and working with us to continuously find the relevance between swing type and equipment.
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:03 am

Tendy Tsao ? New coach ? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:43 am

DGman wrote:
Good one Jonathan...

now for the four school of swing type, please refer to Golf Digest top 4 golf gurus.

all said and done, the relevance of matching swing type to equipment is not something that clubfitters practice. Having worked with instructors such as Paul Tudor, Tendy Tsao, Allen Kelly and others all with different ball striking, we are only beginning to use what's available on the TrackMan to aid us with finding the right shaft (weight, kick point and flex) for our customers.

Hint for AoA, it can be manipulated (increase or decrease) by the golfer (ball position, lie angle or by weight emphasis) or with the right shaft. however the fundamental swing type do not change.

if you look at a david leadbetter swing, it is almost a flat AoA finish (Ian Poulter, Michelle Wie), Hank Haney swing type (Nick Whatney, TW) is a bit more steep and it employ a quieter lower movment. One plane or On plane is beginning to gain recognition and popularity all over the world as an effective golf swing.

for us its still work in progress and we really have to do a lot more research, talk to teaching pros to better understand their school of thoughts and take the opportunity to measure their students swing characteristic for comparison.

DGman

i would also like to put on record that Tendy Tsao was instrumental in opening our eyes in this area of fitting and working with us to continuously find the relevance between swing type and equipment.

ok, so first thing first...

i better go find out the four school of swing type, base on the 4 names given...keke

but what is the relationship between shaft weight vs AoA ?..still cannot figure out...keke

snowman
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:27 am

Lamts18 wrote:
Tendy Tsao ? New coach ? Very Happy

o and i are next to one another and my keyboard is getting too small liao....

its Tsai.
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:37 am

Golf Digest Top 4 Coaches

1. Butch Harmon
2. Hank Haney
3. David Leadbetter
4. Jim MClean

Now i am assuming that the above mentioned coaches have different ways of striking the ball and therefore, the attack angle would slightly differ from player to player as mentioned in my example!!!

Hope it helps...
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:38 pm

Jonathan, now you know why i insist on you using the Px 5.5 as opposed to the KBS stiff.

which school do you think your swing is closest?

why 5.5, not 6.0 or 5.0. why PX old school specifically.

next get some impact tape and check how far up you are hitting the balls on the club face (by this i mean the groove).

Next we need to think in context of velocity and acceleration.

In simple club fitting terms, we can think of velocity as distance over time and acceleration as change in velocity. Simply put its club head speed for velocity but acceleration can be a bit more complicated. why are factors that affect acceleration?

1. length of club
2. mass of the golfer (weight)
3. height of the golfer (if swing arc is maximised)
4. ball compression and decompression (striking thats linked to AoA and flex of shaft)
5. Smash Factor
6. Tempo
7. Technique

Meaning if we line up 4 golfers (of above average proficiency) of the same weight, height and give them the same clubs with the same shaft, they are most likely to hit different distances with different degree of accuracy.

Similarly, we can also get 4 golfers (of above average proficiency) of different weight and height and fit them with the appropriate shaft and flex to get them to hit the same distance with the same degree of accuracy.

Having said all the above, the relevance of club fitting is no more than 30% for a new golfer (unless he or she is physically different - height, physical strength and up to 70% for a highly proficient player who demands accuracy, constant distancing and maneuver-ability.

Food for Thought?

DGman

the above are my opinion and from my own experience in club fitting. research in this area is still ongoing and lastly text books from the fitting gurus such as Tom Wishon or Ralph Maltby do not cover them as next technology in getting critical data were not available with a greater degree of accuracy until the likes of TrackMan came about.
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Absorbing opinions from Walau-JohnL and DGman above,
My head translating this way and to make it short:
- If my chip swing tendency to the hole with high and less roll ---> heavier shaft (For general / not fr the wedges)?
- If I tend to chip n run ---> lighter shaft?

It's just my simplified thought. Do I get it wrong? Thanks for sharing
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PostSubject: Re: How to know if you are suitable to use heavier shaft or lighter shaft ?   Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:36 pm

why don't go out try it. if it works than you've found your answers...
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