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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:09 pm

That's one place to get a tour issue club. There are other places where you can get those equipments way cheaper than BSG. However, BSG does have something others don't sometimes. Like special color shaft, tour iron 'B' heads, etc. And their custom-grinding service by Jose is second to none! Jose WAS the main brain behind TM's wedges, by the way...
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TNRM
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:11 pm

Titu: For me, the point of contention isn't about the authenticity of the club. Rather, it's about the misappropriation of property. More importantly, purchasing such a club renders a person an accessory to a crime of which ignorance isn't a viable defence.
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ghoonk
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:14 pm

Tour van stuff isn't stolen.

Also, many of the tour equipment does not mean it comes off the PGA tour. There are Nationalwide Mini-tours, etc, and caddies are often given sets by the players as a bonus compensation, which many of them sell for cash (normal practice)
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:16 pm

ghoonk wrote:
Yarra, we should meet up one day Smile

Another thing -- I have 2 sets of TM RAC MBs, both Miura forged, both tour-issued. I sent them in to my fitter here in Dubai to have them blueprinted and guess what, when the shafts were pulled, and the hosels were cleaned, he noticed that the heads were all very well balanced within close tolerances. I thought this was supposed to be pretty normal, but he brought out several set of retail heads from leading brands and weighed each head in front of me.

We plotted out the head weights and the result was that the weights were all over the place compared to the tour-issued ones. Not one set of the TM RAC MBs, but both sets. Point is, there is a difference in manufacturing tolerances.

Exactly the reason why tour stuffs are so much more superior than retail! I am playing retail r7 TPs right now, has been looking all over for the right tour issue irons. Here are what I got on my list: Goosen Soft r7 TP, Burner TPs, Burner 'B' heads, Mizuno's MP 68 or Adams a4 we talked about earlier. Problem is, I got so much drivers at hand right now that my wife asks me to get rid of them before she sees another set in my apartment! LOL!!!

On a side note, got a friend in Cali whosimply takes a few sets of irons off the shelf and measure their weights and stuffs to assemble his own blue-printed set resembling those tolerance of tour issues. Kinda cool, but we pay big bucks to him for that kinda service. Well,friends... but business as usual... Rolling Eyes
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:21 pm

TNRM wrote:
Titu: For me, the point of contention isn't about the authenticity of the club. Rather, it's about the misappropriation of property. More importantly, purchasing such a club renders a person an accessory to a crime of which ignorance isn't a viable defence.

Tour issue stuffs are not stolen properties most of the time. They are actually given, distributed by the manufacturers for a certain someone to test and give them feedback. These people are not required to return those properties back. They can do anything as they pleased to them. Caddies are often known to sell these items to support their life. After all, not all acaddies making money on tour.

This is the misconceptions that people have towards tour issue stuffs. Imagine people in BSG, who possess a lot of tour issue stuffs for their stocks. They actually legitly sell those stuffs. Never once they got a problem with the authority, nor the OEM. In fact, OEMs like Callaway, TMs especially and Adams are working together with them! BSG is oneof the first insitution to be given out protos and samples to test out. OEMs value BSG's input, so much so that these guys are often gets proto stuffs before any of their staffers. Amazing, huh? But they do sell these items at a high premium!
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eden
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:24 pm

ghoonk wrote:
Yarra, we should meet up one day Smile

Another thing -- I have 2 sets of TM RAC MBs, both Miura forged, both tour-issued. I sent them in to my fitter here in Dubai to have them blueprinted and guess what, when the shafts were pulled, and the hosels were cleaned, he noticed that the heads were all very well balanced within close tolerances. I thought this was supposed to be pretty normal, but he brought out several set of retail heads from leading brands and weighed each head in front of me.

We plotted out the head weights and the result was that the weights were all over the place compared to the tour-issued ones. Not one set of the TM RAC MBs, but both sets. Point is, there is a difference in manufacturing tolerances.

I have no doubt that there would be difference in the OQC but would there be difference in manufacturing process especially if comments made earlier that all heads (tour issued and retails) are from same production line? If there is a special division/ company producing these tour issues or prototype then that is a different story.

maybe we should be looking at miura clubs and not just tour issued?

if there is a market for a USD500-USD1000 head, why the manufacturers do not introduce a special line? Surely, they can do it now as they are introducing custom fitting as part of product differentiation and customer service....look at Ping, now Taylor made etc.

What I am saying is...yes the clubs could be better becos it is made for specific professional golfer but it stops there, doesnt it? it is made for THAT particular golfer, anyone else that pick up that club would still need to make the adjustments to suit himself/ herself.

If its a new head....wonder if its legal to sell prototype heads or company issued equipments.
If its old..then why pay so much and didnt know that pros are so poorly paid that they have to sell their equipment online.

i totally understand if you are a collector much like one would collect memorabilia but to say that it is better after adjusting lie, shaft, hotmelt, draw biased, fade biased, open, closed 1.5* etc just seems......hmmm......weird?!
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ghoonk
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:34 pm

I have an understanding wife. She understands that I have 9 sets of irons, 6 drivers, 8 fairway woods, 7 hybrids, 17 wedges, 5 putters, and hundreds of golf balls. I understand that she understands and she understands that I better stop spending indiscriminately on golf stuff Razz
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:36 pm

eden wrote:
ghoonk wrote:
Yarra, we should meet up one day Smile

Another thing -- I have 2 sets of TM RAC MBs, both Miura forged, both tour-issued. I sent them in to my fitter here in Dubai to have them blueprinted and guess what, when the shafts were pulled, and the hosels were cleaned, he noticed that the heads were all very well balanced within close tolerances. I thought this was supposed to be pretty normal, but he brought out several set of retail heads from leading brands and weighed each head in front of me.

We plotted out the head weights and the result was that the weights were all over the place compared to the tour-issued ones. Not one set of the TM RAC MBs, but both sets. Point is, there is a difference in manufacturing tolerances.

I have no doubt that there would be difference in the OQC but would there be difference in manufacturing process especially if comments made earlier that all heads (tour issued and retails) are from same production line? If there is a special division/ company producing these tour issues or prototype then that is a different story.

maybe we should be looking at miura clubs and not just tour issued?

if there is a market for a USD500-USD1000 head, why the manufacturers do not introduce a special line? Surely, they can do it now as they are introducing custom fitting as part of product differentiation and customer service....look at Ping, now Taylor made etc.

What I am saying is...yes the clubs could be better becos it is made for specific professional golfer but it stops there, doesnt it? it is made for THAT particular golfer, anyone else that pick up that club would still need to make the adjustments to suit himself/ herself.

If its a new head....wonder if its legal to sell prototype heads or company issued equipments.
If its old..then why pay so much and didnt know that pros are so poorly paid that they have to sell their equipment online.

i totally understand if you are a collector much like one would collect memorabilia but to say that it is better after adjusting lie, shaft, hotmelt, draw biased, fade biased, open, closed 1.5* etc just seems......hmmm......weird?!

Yes and no. Nike used to send blueprints to Miura for them to manufacture tour-issue clubs, that's what I heard. TM certainly used to send their clubs to Miura for forgings. As for why they do not try to establish a line for such clubs. They actually do, TM with the TP line, PING with the WRX and Cally with the TA line. However, they still do not offer personalized service like hotmelting and bending on-site. If you go to the 'Kingdom', where TM do their clubfitting (only a handful of place in the US) then yes. You do have custom service. Even than, not to the extent of hotmelting and such.

So, the trick in getting a tour issue club is, you gotta know who you get it from and you'd wanna get it from people who can do the custom service for you. Only then, it is a money well-spent.

As for the legality of purchasing such a club... It is a common practice amongst the tour stuffs. Even here in Indo, I do see a lot of players and caddies selling those stuffs to a certain people. The difference here, they actually just get the latest model of equipment for free, no custom fitting as such.

As for the improvement after a custom fitting... Well, I certainly would like the club to adjust to my swing instead of me adjusting my swing to every single club in my bag. I struggle to keep a consistent swing throughout the year, let alone I gotta have a few different swing to fit every lie-angle and face-angle difference to play all the clubs in my bag...
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TNRM
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:38 pm

Ghoonk: Let's suppose for a minute that you're GhoonkMade (maker of outstanding golf clubs). You have a tour van and you sign a contract with me for $XX to use your equipment. I can go in and out of the tour van at my leisure and take whatever I want in whatever specs I want for my use. Bear in mind that you invest additional manhours and resources to the tour van equipment I can use because it's to a tighter spec etc etc. Your return for this sponsorship is visible marketing.

Forgetting about consumables (after all, who wants a 2nd hand glove right?), how would you feel if I were to:

1. Go in to the tour van and take whatever I want and then walk right out the back door to flog it on ebay? An alternative would be to give it to my caddie as a 'bonus'?

2. Sell my used GhoonkMade golf equipment on ebay once I'm done with it.

For me, title rests at all times with GhoonkMade. I'm paid to use the equipment and that's it. If I sell on the equipment for profit later and not inform GhoonkMade or provide a revenue stream for GhoonkMade, then it's misappropriation at best or theft at worst. Just because GhoonkMade hasn't raised an issue about this doesn't make it right.

Now, not withstanding that GhoonkMade may have given samples to the public; gratis (as indicated by Yarra). How can you be sure if the tour equipment you purchase is legit or not? If not, why risk it?
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ghoonk
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:38 pm

eden, think like a product manager, not a consumer.

The costs associated with producing and promoting a tour-quality line of equipment to the majority of golfers out there (who don't care about tour equipment) cannot be easily rationalized.

People who are in the know, know where to go, what they want. People who don't, don't care to know.
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:39 pm

ghoonk wrote:
I have an understanding wife. She understands that I have 9 sets of irons, 6 drivers, 8 fairway woods, 7 hybrids, 17 wedges, 5 putters, and hundreds of golf balls. I understand that she understands and she understands that I better stop spending indiscriminately on golf stuff Razz

Well, she does too. But it is getting harder to explain what the heck I've been doing with 11 drivers, a few woods and hybrids lying around the house. Not to mention a bag full of shafts and heads lying around... My weak argument: her shoes is just as many as mine... and she hardly buys any bags, pruse, wallets, whatever... check-mate!
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ghoonk
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:44 pm

TNRM wrote:
Ghoonk: Let's suppose for a minute that you're GhoonkMade (maker of outstanding golf clubs). You have a tour van and you sign a contract with me for $XX to use your equipment. I can go in and out of the tour van at my leisure and take whatever I want in whatever specs I want for my use. Bear in mind that you invest additional manhours and resources to the tour van equipment I can use because it's to a tighter spec etc etc. Your return for this sponsorship is visible marketing.

Forgetting about consumables (after all, who wants a 2nd hand glove right?), how would you feel if I were to:

1. Go in to the tour van and take whatever I want and then walk right out the back door to flog it on ebay? An alternative would be to give it to my caddie as a 'bonus'?

2. Sell my used GhoonkMade golf equipment on ebay once I'm done with it.

For me, title rests at all times with GhoonkMade. I'm paid to use the equipment and that's it. If I sell on the equipment for profit later and not inform GhoonkMade or provide a revenue stream for GhoonkMade, then it's misappropriation at best or theft at worst. Just because GhoonkMade hasn't raised an issue about this doesn't make it right.

Now, not withstanding that GhoonkMade may have given samples to the public; gratis (as indicated by Yarra). How can you be sure if the tour equipment you purchase is legit or not? If not, why risk it?

It doesn't matter what I think. It's how things are. I don't question how the tradition or practice came about, but it's not like this tour-equipment market is disrupting the mass market sales, which is why they are in business.

Keep in mind that Joe Golfer couldn't care less about tour-issued equipment. Tour-issued equipment doesn't come with warranty, and not something you can get off the neighborhood stores.
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:45 pm

TNRM wrote:


1. Go in to the tour van and take whatever I want and then walk right out the back door to flog it on ebay? An alternative would be to give it to my caddie as a 'bonus'?

2. Sell my used GhoonkMade golf equipment on ebay once I'm done with it.


First off, it is not as easy as it sounds... You can't just walk into a tour van, let alone takes stuffs. Only a handful of people can do that, that's why tour issue equipment is so exclusive, especially the new ones... We pay upwards of US$1000 for new driver head and upwards of $3000 for a set of irons.

Secondly, not too many poeple understands such a thing. Got a lot of stares from people whom I tried to explain them to about tour equipment. They think either I am a fool or a rip off. Or a fooll trying to rip him off!

Thirdly, not all of eBay sellers are honest. A lot of them are selling fakes from Chinese factory! That;s why: NEVER EVER BUY TOUR STUFFS FROM eBAY!
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:47 pm

ghoonk,

Should put up a simple test... Put a 282 and retail Superquad side-by-side. Shaft it up and spec it up exactly the same... Let them tell us how they are different. Would make a believer outta them, GUARANTEE! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:51 pm

Agreed, but why bother? Smile

People who know, know. People who don't, don't care.
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:52 pm

Yarra wrote:
ghoonk,

Should put up a simple test... Put a 282 and retail Superquad side-by-side. Shaft it up and spec it up exactly the same... Let them tell us how they are different. Would make a believer outta them, GUARANTEE! Razz

Yarra:
I think it would be better to grab a non-tour club (nakashima, ikasu, miura etc) and then compared with a tour issed club.

fit both with the same aftermarket shaft, exactly the same specification then have a go.

i wonder if ghoonk had tested miura with the fitter in dubai, would it be that far off from his tour issued XX brand (cant remember) Miura forged irons?
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:53 pm

You're right. Let this remains to be our advantage! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:54 pm

Yarra and Ghoonk: Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing that the tour stuff is the Rolls-Royce standard. I'm also not engaging you in discussion for arguments sake nor to shove views down your throat. My views are naive and simplistic but bound by fundamentals of right and wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
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eden
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:57 pm

i am not saying that retail is as good as tour issued, i am saying you can get a custom fitted club based on your specification right from the start.

if you have a ferrari but cant reach the pedals, can u beat the 1955 VW?

anyway, i am not a collector cos i cant understand why have more than 2-3 sets at any one time.

i salute you for your passion and your understanding wives.
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:59 pm

eden wrote:
Yarra wrote:
ghoonk,

Should put up a simple test... Put a 282 and retail Superquad side-by-side. Shaft it up and spec it up exactly the same... Let them tell us how they are different. Would make a believer outta them, GUARANTEE! Razz

Yarra:
I think it would be better to grab a non-tour club (nakashima, ikasu, miura etc) and then compared with a tour issed club.

fit both with the same aftermarket shaft, exactly the same specification then have a go.

i wonder if ghoonk had tested miura with the fitter in dubai, would it be that far off from his tour issued XX brand (cant remember) Miura forged irons?

Wouldn't root for the Miura if you know the story behind it. But I do believe that they will be similar if you compared tour issue irons against the likes of Nakashima and such. As long as they are still forged in Japan. Once they go to the mass-production facilities else where, don't bet on it! At the end, it's all comes down to quality control and preference.
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eden
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:03 pm

[/quote]

Wouldn't root for the Miura if you know the story behind it. But I do believe that they will be similar if you compared tour issue irons against the likes of Nakashima and such. As long as they are still forged in Japan. Once they go to the mass-production facilities else where, don't bet on it! At the end, it's all comes down to quality control and preference.[/quote]

pls tell me the story of miura...... Peace
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:06 pm

TNRM wrote:
Yarra and Ghoonk: Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing that the tour stuff is the Rolls-Royce standard. I'm also not engaging you in discussion for arguments sake nor to shove views down your throat. My views are naive and simplistic but bound by fundamentals of right and wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

I am just trying to clear out the general misconception people have towards tour issue clubs. I don't judge right or wrong. At the end, it comes back to the players' own preferences. My point from the start: everything wroks well if it is suited and fitted to your golf swing. You can buy the most expensive equipment money can buy, but if it's not suited to you personally, you'd still be that rich golfer who can't shoot under your own handicap!
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Yarra
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:14 pm

Miura is a forging company. Period. In saying that, they've done excellent job forging clubs for OEMs such as TM. But they're just given a certain specs and blueprint to do, they were not involve in the development process of building the club. Nor do they have an RD department of their own. Having said that, all Miura-branded irons are not thoroughly RD-ed. They are not, in my opinion, as good as others.

They sell and they are demanded just because of that: they are made by Miura, the company who's OEM trusted to do the excellent job forging for them, especially for their tour players.

Again, my 2-cents, preference based on what I knew and experienced.
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:29 pm

Yarra: You're missing the point. When you hold a Miura, you are partaking into the spirit of the bushido. Golfer and iron becomes one, just as the samurai and his katana become one. Banzai!!!!

Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Tour Issue Equipment   Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:33 pm

TNRM wrote:
Yarra and Ghoonk: Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing that the tour stuff is the Rolls-Royce standard. I'm also not engaging you in discussion for arguments sake nor to shove views down your throat. My views are naive and simplistic but bound by fundamentals of right and wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree here.

Yes, we agree to disagree. I've been in product management for over 15 years, and there are many reasons I can see as to why manufacturers would not want to release tour-specced equipment for public consumption.

@eden -- your example is a bit too extreme. I would say that a more accurate comparison would be to say that a street punk in a Ferrari vs a racing driver in a Lotus Elise, in a straight line drag race. If your shifting sucks, you still lose Smile

Guys, there are many reasons why people choose tour-issued equipment. In my case, it's mostly the heowness and the fact that I get them at prices that I pay for retail stuff anyway. Keep in mind that there are few, if any, 2nd hand golf shops here in UAE like you guys enjoy in Singapore, so if I'm going to be buying retail (think GH prices, no discount) or flying stuff in, I might as well get tour stuff. It also helps tremendously that I happen to know the specs I like, e.g.

1 of my TM RAC MBs have a leading edge ground by the tour van, set was supposed to off a PGA Tour player, but name cannot be divulged. The leading edge was ground in such a way that it reduces digging in softer ground conditions. I got the set, pretended to act blur and went to my fitter as well as the Titleist specialist at the BHSG here (who also used to work on tour van) and asked them what they thought. Both came off impressed with the grind and recognized it immediately as a tour issued set since no one would bother to do this for retail sets, not even teaching pros. They also explained to me the reason behind the grind (which I already knew anyway), which was aligned to my understanding.

Same goes with 2 of my TM Tour Burner drivers. I like the Tour Burner head, but I didnt like how the retail heads were all set up to be square at address, which has a tendency to create hooks for me. The tour heads I have now in my bag are 1.5* face open (on the 9* loft) to 2* face open (on my 10.7* lofted head), which works better for me. I got these even before the R9s were out, and frankly did not care for the cosmetics of the R9. As such, the tour driver heads were a better alternative to finding a clubfitter who would want to mess around with face angles and lie angles here in Dubai.

I could go on about the difference in spin rates on my wedges (which sadly, are now non-conforming), and how they get more spin at the expense of ball durability (tour pros don't care since they get all the balls they want), and how they are different from the retail versions which may have been toned down a notch since recreational players don't appreciate having to replace their balls every 3 holes.
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