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 Club Fitting - what does it entail?

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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:16 am

Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

Somedays I think of changing to lefty. Those Ikasu s are nice Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:19 am

Right_sided_coach wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

Somedays I think of changing to lefty. Those Ikasu s are nice Smile


Haha.... you can try mine anytime.... Smile
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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:35 am

Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

I got lucky that day. Stick to R/H. I played 9 holes L/H once and could only manage 45. The putting was terrible. Adam Scott can apparently hit a driver 300 yards left handed. He once outdrove Mickelson in a practice round using Phils club.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:37 am

Right_sided_coach wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

I got lucky that day. Stick to R/H. I played 9 holes L/H once and could only manage 45. The putting was terrible. Adam Scott can apparently hit a driver 300 yards left handed. He once outdrove Mickelson in a practice round using Phils club.


You got talent mah..... give the the 45 anytime.... Very Happy
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Technospaz
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:41 am

Right_sided_coach wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

I got lucky that day. Stick to R/H. I played 9 holes L/H once and could only manage 45. The putting was terrible. Adam Scott can apparently hit a driver 300 yards left handed. He once outdrove Mickelson in a practice round using Phils club.

You played with left handed clubs and scored a 45?? Amazing!
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Lamts18
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:44 am

Technospaz wrote:
Right_sided_coach wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

I got lucky that day. Stick to R/H. I played 9 holes L/H once and could only manage 45. The putting was terrible. Adam Scott can apparently hit a driver 300 yards left handed. He once outdrove Mickelson in a practice round using Phils club.

You played with left handed clubs and scored a 45?? Amazing!


You should have seen him hit a lefty club.. so straight.... i want to give up golf.... Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:46 am

Lamts18 wrote:
Technospaz wrote:
Right_sided_coach wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
Yes... Paul can also hit my lefty club better than me... Very Happy

I got lucky that day. Stick to R/H. I played 9 holes L/H once and could only manage 45. The putting was terrible. Adam Scott can apparently hit a driver 300 yards left handed. He once outdrove Mickelson in a practice round using Phils club.

You played with left handed clubs and scored a 45?? Amazing!


You should have seen him hit a lefty club.. so straight.... i want to give up golf.... Mad

I think I'll take 45 on the 1st hole itself Sad
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AXIV
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:14 pm

Right_sided_coach wrote:
AXIV wrote:


The golf club creates the motion the player makes. If a player is not swinging well it comes back to the equipment he is using.

That does not make sense to me either. If I am swinging bad, I can guarantee it is not the club, it is something I am doing in my swing, usually club face being closed, caused by grip getting too strong. Give me any club you like, it aint gonna fix my swing. Motion is not created by the golf club, it is created by the origin of your swing - the set up. Also what is swinging into balance. Ive seen many swings that finish in balance, however they look terrible prior to that!
During lessons I will demonstrate shots with the nearest club I can find, ladies, mens graphite, even junior clubs. I can hit the ball solid with any of these variations of shafts, lengths, lie angles. Actually hit my best ones with those ladies TM's. Maybe I should invest in a set of those lol!

Club fitting and coaching need to be used hand in hand in my opinion

You finally got it. Fitting and coaching go hand in hand. Every time a player hits the ball he or she will look to see what the ball has done. They react to the ball flight. If they have a club that slices they will close the club at address or strengthen their grip or both. If they hook they open it. If they hit too low they hang back. It is a case of monkey see monkey do. You may learn through visual, kinesthetics or auditory, but the majority of your feed back comes from looking at the ball. Your eyes feed the info to the brain and the brain sends signals to the muscels to make the swing.
club fitting was started by a company called Henry-Griffitts. On the first page of their manual they use the word balance about 32 times.
Ever wondered way some of your students come with a strong grip or week grip? Why some swing over the top and others under the plane. was this taught bu a taeching professional? If so they are doing a bad job. So many bad swings going around. Should we get rid of the teaching pro's? No something causes these faults. Why when you have 6 students in a group do they end up with different grips, swing planes etc. Is that the teaching/
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:22 pm

So why then once a player has a custom fitted set, they still make the same swing faults? How do you custom fit a beginner that doesn't even have a swing? Is custom fitting going to fix a reverse pivot? Players hang back because they turn the wrong way, not coz of their clubs being wrong. I think there is alot more too it than the clubs. I firmly believe in changing set up of swing above all other things to change the motion. Ideally a combo of both is the prefered way.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:34 pm

As a clubfitter, would you fit a customers clubs to their current swing that has faults in it or would you get them to improve their swing first and then fit them later? Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?? I think fitting a student to an incorrect motion is not going to change that motion. I think you can use club fitting to correct a swing fault as in my example above. If we had tested her on a lie board with her incorrect impact position, the lie angles would have looked correct. I had them adjusted and then got her to fix her impact position by adapting to the clubs.
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AXIV
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:48 pm

You will see that
Right_sided_coach wrote:
As a clubfitter, would you fit a customers clubs to their current swing that has faults in it or would you get them to improve their swing first and then fit them later? Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?? I think fitting a student to an incorrect motion is not going to change that motion. I think you can use club fitting to correct a swing fault as in my example above. If we had tested her on a lie board with her incorrect impact position, the lie angles would have looked correct. I had them adjusted and then got her to fix her impact position by adapting to the clubs.
If you rember the 3 things that are needed to obtain a fitted set of clubs:
1. Precisin fitting method
2.Fitting professional spececially schooled in club science, swing analysis and precision fitting
3. quality clubs
You will see the ingredients of a teaching professional. He will work out why the player reverse pivots. I firmly believe that 50% is learning the swing and 50% is getting the right club. Once you go to the course it is only 10% swing, 10% clubs and 80% mental. Now if the clubs are not suited the player will spend 100% of his time making compensating motions on the driving range. When this player goes to the course that 80% mental becomes garbage in and garbage out. We want precision in , precisuin out. To do that the clubs must suit the player so that while thay have lessons and practice they are being rewarded for making a good motion.
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Ssquirrel
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:02 pm

AXIV wrote:
If you rember the 3 things that are needed to obtain a fitted set of clubs:
1. Precisin fitting method
2.Fitting professional spececially schooled in club science, swing analysis and precision fitting
3. quality clubs
.

Please expound on what exactly is "precision fitting" and how does one get "schooled specially in club science, swing analysis and precision fitting"?

Thanks. Surprised
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S70B
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:16 pm

I'm sorry AXIV, as much as it seems like you have alot of knowledge to share on this topic, you are not making alot of sense to many of us.

I'm with Paul on this and I reiterate: You cannot fit a total beginner and expect them to play golf properly if they haven't a clue about the swing itself. The different swing methodologies is another matter altogether.

Most beginners have no idea why they slice, top, duff, shank, hook etc. Making compensations is not intuitive for every individual. Thats why there are chronic slicers and hookers if they continue to hit the ball the way they think is right.

Clubfitting has only become a hot topic a few years ago. Do not tell me that Mr Bobby Jones, Sam Snead and Ben Hogan all swung it beautifully because they had clubs fitted perfectly for them back then.

Also, since we know that ETW is very particular and sensitive to his equipment and has been 'precision fitted' by those Nike boyz, you would have seen him hit 14/14 and 18/18 day in day out (which isn't happening anytime soon as you know it).

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AXIV
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:22 pm

Ssquirrel wrote:
AXIV wrote:
If you rember the 3 things that are needed to obtain a fitted set of clubs:
1. Precisin fitting method
2.Fitting professional spececially schooled in club science, swing analysis and precision fitting
3. quality clubs
.

Please expound on what exactly is "precision fitting" and how does one get "schooled specially in club science, swing analysis and precision fitting"?

Thanks. Surprised
1. A precision fitting method is a system that uses multiple test clubs with diverse characteristics that aims at identifying a configuration that suits the player. For example. diferent head designs with different lie angles with different shafts flexs, different flex points, different stiffnesses and different material(steel, graphite) These shafts and heads are interchangeable to able the fitter to swop different heads and shafts. for example 10 heads, 30 shafts, 5 different lie angles = 1500 combinations.
5 driver heads, 6 lofts, 30 shafts = 900 combinations( nit taking into account different face angles or head weight)
2. A fitting professional who is and has been trained to teach golf at the higest level, trained in the characteristics of head design, shaft profiles, compensating motions. The fitter must be trained in the cause and effect of golf clubs versus swing faults. A good fitter can tell a player about his golf game in as little as 3 shots. Precision fitting is the measuring of data with the exact head and shaft that the player is going to be fitted into. If a player wants to fit a driver he should hit the exact spec's and have the data recorded with the ball he or she plays with. Things like attack angle, effective loft at impact, backspin, axis spin, smash factor and launch angle. You need to know this data to ensure the precision fit. Here in Singapore so many players hit the ball on the downswing adding loft to their drivers creating way too much spin. Golfers here are amazed at how much run I get on my driver.
3. Quality clubs comes from the fitter or assembly guy having been trained in basic tools. He must have a good knowledge of precision when it comes to building clubs to close tollerances. Good machines is a must that are callibrated.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:31 pm

AXIV wrote:
2. A fitting professional who is and has been trained to teach golf at the higest level, trained in the characteristics of head design, shaft profiles, compensating motions. The fitter must be trained in the cause and effect of golf clubs versus swing faults. A good fitter can tell a player about his golf game in as little as 3 shots.

Ben/Mark, I wud advise against making sweeping statements like that..or just be more specific without trying to overload your posts with data. How wud a fitter know my golf game in 3 shots? You mean he will know how I chip and putt just by looking at me hit 3 driver shots?
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:28 pm

Quote :


2. A fitting professional who is and has been trained to teach golf at the higest level, trained in the characteristics of head design, shaft profiles, compensating motions. The fitter must be trained in the cause and effect of golf clubs versus swing faults. A good fitter can tell a player about his golf game in as little as 3 shots. Precision fitting is the measuring of data with the exact head and shaft that the player is going to be fitted into. If a player wants to fit a driver he should hit the exact spec's and have the data recorded with the ball he or she plays with. Things like attack angle, effective loft at impact, backspin, axis spin, smash factor and launch angle. You need to know this data to ensure the precision fit. Here in Singapore so many players hit the ball on the downswing adding loft to their drivers creating way too much spin. Golfers here are amazed at how much run I get on my driver.

So that doesnt leave many club fitters in this world. Most of us PGA pros specialise in a certain field, i.e fitting, teaching or playing. I think most have a certain knowledge of all but not specialists in all. Any club fitting issue I have, I go and see a fitter with the student and work in conjunction with the fitter to achieve the corrrect equipment to match up to the swing I teach. If i just let the fittter make up his own mind without knowing what myself and the student are trying to achieve in their swing, then it probably won't work out. As the RSS is different to the traditional swing, I need to work with a clubfitter so he/she is aware of the differences. I understand the technichal stuff in the swing, but I do not have time to know every possible shaft, head design, grip, etc to be able to advise on fitting. As the fitter would not have the technical knowledge about the RSS. Therefore it needs to be a team effort. I think being a jack of all trades and a master in none is not going to get the best result for the student.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:15 am

i agree rss. with the coach going with the student to get fitted by a professional fitter, then it eliminates the "which came first" question. in this case BOTH the chicken and the egg came first.

fitting goes in tandem with improving. a player cannot stick to a club with it's lie angles way out of wack and a shaft to stiff for him and expect to improve and develop a repeatable enough swing because he'd be slicing and duffing all over. but this is in the case where the club is really too different for his/her swing.

speaking from personal experience, i've been playing with a set that's ancient and setting up with my toe high up in the air and i've still managed to hit the ball fairly consistent and i'd like to say i've improved. maybe it's because i'm making adjustments i don't know, but i do understand what goes into a good swing and i think i'm doing fine. so i'm deciding to purchase a new set, get fit and see how it goes!

aiya if only clubs could be modified in seconds with the power of the mind! like a fast setting playdo or something. then during lessons can just adjust adjust until shiok. oh well.

and thanks for bearing with the noob! and this is all completely entirely wholly absolutely IMHO! Very Happy


Last edited by ironfist on Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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yelnats
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:27 am

AXIV wrote:
DGman wrote:
proper club fitting can only come about after the golfer have developed a more definite swing. it is therefore correct to say that the swing must be in order before the club can be fitted.

what does club fitting entail? if a golfer is fairly competent in his or her swing but find that there is a lack of confidence in his or her equipment or that the result in their good strike is falling short of expectations, they should talk to a club fitter - have a swing analysis and their equipment evaluated.

if they are hitting straight one third of the time and left and right the other 60% of the time, they should see a qualified teaching pro not a club fitter.

this message is a constant reminder that a club fitter cannot solve a problem thats inherited in a swing. if we do, its only a temporary fix and not a permanent cure.

DGman

The golf club creates the motion the player makes. If a player is not swinging well it comes back to the equipment he is using. A good fitter who has good teaching abilities will give the golfer a club or clubs that reward him when he makes a good swing in to balance. It is the fitters job to help the player to evaluate their own balnce during a fitting and after they receive their new clubs. The player must walk away from the fitting knowing that he or she can maintain balance during each golf swing.
therefore it takes:
1.precision fitting method
2. a fitting professional schooled in swing analysis, club science and precision fitting
3. quality clubs individually constucted.

good teaching professionals know that the equipment students play with either hinder or make it possible to learn a good motion into balance.

AXIV...well said. You are absolutely right. A properly fitted set will only help a golfer make or even learn a better swing.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:33 am

it reduces the 'blame it on the clubs'...haha
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:41 am

Tiger Woods’ Comments on Fitting and Golf Equipment

The Golf Channel’s veteran reporter Kelly Tilghman recently had the opportunity to conduct a sit-down interview with Tiger Woods. The interview was aired on The Golf Channel in early October and covered a variety of subjects with the world’s number one ranked player. Of particular interest in the interview to clubmakers were the responses Tiger made when asked by Tilghman to comment on the importance of equipment to amateur golfers and the state of the golf equipment industry. (Following is an excerpt from The Golf Channel interview with Tiger Woods, as published on iseekgolf.com )

Kelly Tilghman: What is the most important thing that amateurs need to know about equipment these days?

Tiger Woods: Proper fitting, I think the ultimate key is to have the golf clubs fit you, you not fit the club. I try and stress that to all the juniors and even amateurs that I give clinics to, they ask me in Pro Ams, you got to get a club that fits. You don't want a club that's (inaudible) you like to play two degrees upright. It's not going to work. You are not going to get the maximum advantages of that club. The club was not designed to be hit that way. I think that's one of the advantages that I think club fitting has certainly made leaps and bounds is that they are able to fit people properly. In basically 20 minutes you can get a club fitting done, over and done with, get a club right there on the spot. I think that's where amateurs need to take advantage of that opportunity. I think that will help their game tremendously.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:38 am

I still do not believe that with proper fitting, it will help or teach a person to play golf. If a person have the tendency to finish his shot early and a tendency to top the ball, does club fitting help???
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:31 am

S70B wrote:
AXIV wrote:
2. A fitting professional who is and has been trained to teach golf at the higest level, trained in the characteristics of head design, shaft profiles, compensating motions. The fitter must be trained in the cause and effect of golf clubs versus swing faults. A good fitter can tell a player about his golf game in as little as 3 shots.

Ben/Mark, I wud advise against making sweeping statements like that..or just be more specific without trying to overload your posts with data. How wud a fitter know my golf game in 3 shots? You mean he will know how I chip and putt just by looking at me hit 3 driver shots?
Good fitters will question you before a fitting. What's your handical, scores, weakenesses. Then your 3 driver swings will show up any compensating motions. For example: you use alot of hands to close the club face. Your weight distrubution points left indicating an out to in swing path. These motions will show up in your short game as well. The next big thing in teaching anf fitting to come along is weight distrubution alignment. You will see a lot of pro's using taeching aids like the Prostance and force plates. As I have said early learning golf is 50% swing and 50% club. The clubs are just as important as the teaching. They go hand in hand. In Australia i spend a lot of time at the Canberra institute of sport. This is where they study how people learn, react, think and play sport to the highest level.
I am my own man. These are my beliefs from proven data and has nothing to do with my dad. I am not even close to his league. His study rate is off the charts. He goes to the PGA show every year, spends 6 hours a day at lectures. I know most clubfitters continue to study and never stop learning. Having talks like we are doing know is another point of study.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:37 am

Personally, i feel that club fitting will not benefit a beginner that much, simply because a beginner does not have the ability to execute the same swing. However, to a more advance player, i agree that club fitting will help great and i have personally seen someone shaving a couple of strokes of his handicap with the right equipment.
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:44 am

AXIV wrote:
S70B wrote:
AXIV wrote:
2. A fitting professional who is and has been trained to teach golf at the higest level, trained in the characteristics of head design, shaft profiles, compensating motions. The fitter must be trained in the cause and effect of golf clubs versus swing faults. A good fitter can tell a player about his golf game in as little as 3 shots.

Ben/Mark, I wud advise against making sweeping statements like that..or just be more specific without trying to overload your posts with data. How wud a fitter know my golf game in 3 shots? You mean he will know how I chip and putt just by looking at me hit 3 driver shots?
Good fitters will question you before a fitting. What's your handical, scores, weakenesses. Then your 3 driver swings will show up any compensating motions. For example: you use alot of hands to close the club face. Your weight distrubution points left indicating an out to in swing path. These motions will show up in your short game as well. The next big thing in teaching anf fitting to come along is weight distrubution alignment. You will see a lot of pro's using taeching aids like the Prostance and force plates. As I have said early learning golf is 50% swing and 50% club. The clubs are just as important as the teaching. They go hand in hand. In Australia i spend a lot of time at the Canberra institute of sport. This is where they study how people learn, react, think and play sport to the highest level.
I am my own man. These are my beliefs from proven data and has nothing to do with my dad. I am not even close to his league. His study rate is off the charts. He goes to the PGA show every year, spends 6 hours a day at lectures. I know most clubfitters continue to study and never stop learning. Having talks like we are doing know is another point of study.

Honestly, if a club-fitter does wat you mentioned. I will be pretty impressed. Most of the time, the conversation goes like this.

Clubfitter : Wats wrong with your irons ah? Too upright ah?
Man : Ya lor!
Clubfitter : Ok! I bent 1 deg lower for you then you go test ok?
Man : Ok

After bending, and testing

Clubfitter : How?
Man : Ok lah! Better now!
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AXIV
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PostSubject: Re: Club Fitting - what does it entail?   Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:47 am

nientsu wrote:
AXIV wrote:
S70B wrote:
AXIV wrote:
2. A fitting professional who is and has been trained to teach golf at the higest level, trained in the characteristics of head design, shaft profiles, compensating motions. The fitter must be trained in the cause and effect of golf clubs versus swing faults. A good fitter can tell a player about his golf game in as little as 3 shots.

Ben/Mark, I wud advise against making sweeping statements like that..or just be more specific without trying to overload your posts with data. How wud a fitter know my golf game in 3 shots? You mean he will know how I chip and putt just by looking at me hit 3 driver shots?
Good fitters will question you before a fitting. What's your handical, scores, weakenesses. Then your 3 driver swings will show up any compensating motions. For example: you use alot of hands to close the club face. Your weight distrubution points left indicating an out to in swing path. These motions will show up in your short game as well. The next big thing in teaching anf fitting to come along is weight distrubution alignment. You will see a lot of pro's using taeching aids like the Prostance and force plates. As I have said early learning golf is 50% swing and 50% club. The clubs are just as important as the teaching. They go hand in hand. In Australia i spend a lot of time at the Canberra institute of sport. This is where they study how people learn, react, think and play sport to the highest level.
I am my own man. These are my beliefs from proven data and has nothing to do with my dad. I am not even close to his league. His study rate is off the charts. He goes to the PGA show every year, spends 6 hours a day at lectures. I know most clubfitters continue to study and never stop learning. Having talks like we are doing know is another point of study.

Honestly, if a club-fitter does wat you mentioned. I will be pretty impressed. Most of the time, the conversation goes like this.

Clubfitter : Wats wrong with your irons ah? Too upright ah?
Man : Ya lor!
Clubfitter : Ok! I bent 1 deg lower for you then you go test ok?
Man : Ok

After bending, and testing

Clubfitter : How?
Man : Ok lah! Better now!

I don't doubt you, but I believe there are some good fitters here in Singapore.
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