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 Understanding the Swing Plane

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4dtoto
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:32 pm

DGman wrote:
Lamts18 wrote:
i am utterly confused after looking and think i shall give up and go fishing.. at least fishing still use shafts and its easier..

Mr Lam...got garage sale at hacienda grove...abu rods - 282, zoom etc, abu cardinal 66, mitchell reels...left and and right hand models. tackle box and all kinds of lines.

since its not golf equipment, no need to put picture right?

the other other things that use shafts also....

DGman

Aiyah, just saw this post...too late to go liao to buy some fishing reels...
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:18 pm

Right_sided_coach wrote:
A plane to me is something that flies in the sky. lol! I refer to it as a swing path. In my opinion, the path is a product of the body angles in your swing, the direction of your turn and your swing radius. To simplify, you can improve your path by improving these 3 things. I have seen many that have a good swing path however still can not hit the ball well because they have the wrong body angles, open or closed clubface, too wide/narrow etc. You must take into account that the club face is the biggest factor in the direction your golf ball travels. This is something that has not been mentioned in any part of this thread. These swing plane gadgets such as explainer, plane boards, lasers, are all irrelevant if you do not have correct body angles and a square clubface. You can be on plane however if your body is tilted or clubface shut, you will have to manipulate your body and the club face to be able to hit it where u want. My priority when fixing a swing is firstly body angles, secondly the club face. If I fix the body angles, I know the path will change for the better. If you try to fix your plane, without fixing your body, you will hit it worse. Once again it comes back to set up. If you set up inverted, you cant get it on plane unless you fake it by manipulating with hands, body etc.


Hi RSS, thank you for the short (as short as can be given the topic) and precise reply. It really got me thinking about how was was dealing with my club face.

Anyways, as most old timers here will attest. Getting tips by reading it off a page or a forum can lead to a great deal of misunderstanding. Unfortunately this was not the case here. As with earlier post, there seems to be a pattern of beating-around -the-bush posting. This I believe is the root of the situation. As we surf the forum to read on any possible tips that can help cut cut even 1 stroke off our games, nothing is more irritating then reading a thread that doesn't say anything and makes a big deal of not saying anything. If you want to say it, get around to saying it. not beating around the bush. Trying to impresses with confusion leaves all readers the poorer. And while the language was rather impressive with big words that don't really say much, keeping it simple will reach a large audience.

On a different note. I have played golf for 12 years. Starting in Australia when I had the fortune to get a part-time job at a casino / golf course.
After a series of lessons, I too thought I could go it on my own, reading a mag here, watching a pro hit a few balls, and more recently watching watching tips on the internet. So over the years I have collected many pieces of useful information. I was an exceptionally consistent player then, always scoring 110 to 130. Additionally, what I have today is a puzzle that make less sense to me now then it did when I started.

The point I am trying to make here is that, a coach is still the only way to go. A tip is a quick fix to a problem that could be the result of other issues. A tip is a short and sweet answer to a very specific question. It doesn't make the game and too many of them will confuse.

But choosing a pro has its problems too. Having spoken to a few coaches in the last few months on a casual basis, it has dawned on me that their singularly similar complaint is that everyone seems to want a quick fix. Trust me, it doesn't work that way.... If it did, there wouldn't be coaches and we would all be on the PGA. And lets face it, what commercial value is there for the Gurus to post all their secrets here? While I appreciate their time to post and reply on this forum, I am doubtful that reading their posting here for an hour will benefit me more then if I were to go see them for a session.

If you pay 100 dollars for a one-on-one lesson that last 1 hour, as a student, will you spend Ten * 1hr on the driving range to get the 100 to pay off???
I ask this as most people will spend the 100, take the 1 hours and head out to the course for 18 holes and play badly and blame the 1 hour they had with the coach and proclaim the 100 the student spent a waste of money. So here's the thought. Spend your FREE time talking to a coach you may want to take lessons with. If he charges you for the chat, you got the wrong guy. But if you think a 1 lesson session will pay off, well, buy a magazine, it will last longer. Tiger has a coach still, shouldn't you?
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Right_sided_coach
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:40 pm

Well said G Man. I totally agree with you. Tips are not gonna help anyone as they are very general and not specific to all swings. As a coach I refuse to give someone 1 lesson as like you mention, he is gonna play worse and then blame the pro. Changing a fault in ones swing takes alot of time and practice and it may be months before the results are evident. Most make big improvements but a week later, they tend to go back to their old swing. There are others that take lessons and dont practice or do not do the drills prescribed. That is frustrating.
You need to have confidence that your pro is making the right changes and with video be able to see the changes being made from lesson to lesson. If the pro is on the right track and the changes are happening, the ball flight will change as well. Hence I offer the free swing analysis so any student that wants to take lessons can see what I do, hear about my swing philosophy, meet me as a person, check out the facility and decide if this is what they want to do. Majority take a 10 lesson package, some don't. No pressure either way. I just show them their fault and what is causing it and then recommend a plan to change it.
The student also needs to do the hard work or he/she is wasting their time and money. Some students honestly speaking will never be great at golf no matter how many lessons or practice they do. There is definitely alot of skill, hand eye coordination and physical attributes. Some golfers just do not have this. Either way they can still enjoy this wonderful game just like anyone else
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jaketang
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:45 pm

i have already stop blaming everyone.... except myself.....

nowadays i dun bother to blame myself too...


juz try to enjoy the game most with my limited skill on golf... well i can still appreciate the golf course, the layout, sometimes think about why this particular is design in this way... etc...

so many things on the course for us to appreciate... even our playing partners.. good example on recent game. Get to see the future of golf aka "i" how he tackle the course... MT how he play certain shots... MC how he drive so far and could even spin the ball too...

well i believe there's no shortcuts in golf.....

for me, i try to enjoy as much as i can... Smile
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mUAr_cHEe
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:53 pm

mr tang, u very the humble leh.

oh king of up and down...

i am not worthy...
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redbull
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:55 pm

G_Man wrote:
Right_sided_coach wrote:
A plane to me is something that flies in the sky. lol! I refer to it as a swing path. In my opinion, the path is a product of the body angles in your swing, the direction of your turn and your swing radius. To simplify, you can improve your path by improving these 3 things. I have seen many that have a good swing path however still can not hit the ball well because they have the wrong body angles, open or closed clubface, too wide/narrow etc. You must take into account that the club face is the biggest factor in the direction your golf ball travels. This is something that has not been mentioned in any part of this thread. These swing plane gadgets such as explainer, plane boards, lasers, are all irrelevant if you do not have correct body angles and a square clubface. You can be on plane however if your body is tilted or clubface shut, you will have to manipulate your body and the club face to be able to hit it where u want. My priority when fixing a swing is firstly body angles, secondly the club face. If I fix the body angles, I know the path will change for the better. If you try to fix your plane, without fixing your body, you will hit it worse. Once again it comes back to set up. If you set up inverted, you cant get it on plane unless you fake it by manipulating with hands, body etc.


Hi RSS, thank you for the short (as short as can be given the topic) and precise reply. It really got me thinking about how was was dealing with my club face.

Anyways, as most old timers here will attest. Getting tips by reading it off a page or a forum can lead to a great deal of misunderstanding. Unfortunately this was not the case here. As with earlier post, there seems to be a pattern of beating-around -the-bush posting. This I believe is the root of the situation. As we surf the forum to read on any possible tips that can help cut cut even 1 stroke off our games, nothing is more irritating then reading a thread that doesn't say anything and makes a big deal of not saying anything. If you want to say it, get around to saying it. not beating around the bush. Trying to impresses with confusion leaves all readers the poorer. And while the language was rather impressive with big words that don't really say much, keeping it simple will reach a large audience.

On a different note. I have played golf for 12 years. Starting in Australia when I had the fortune to get a part-time job at a casino / golf course.
After a series of lessons, I too thought I could go it on my own, reading a mag here, watching a pro hit a few balls, and more recently watching watching tips on the internet. So over the years I have collected many pieces of useful information. I was an exceptionally consistent player then, always scoring 110 to 130. Additionally, what I have today is a puzzle that make less sense to me now then it did when I started.

The point I am trying to make here is that, a coach is still the only way to go. A tip is a quick fix to a problem that could be the result of other issues. A tip is a short and sweet answer to a very specific question. It doesn't make the game and too many of them will confuse.

But choosing a pro has its problems too. Having spoken to a few coaches in the last few months on a casual basis, it has dawned on me that their singularly similar complaint is that everyone seems to want a quick fix. Trust me, it doesn't work that way.... If it did, there wouldn't be coaches and we would all be on the PGA. And lets face it, what commercial value is there for the Gurus to post all their secrets here? While I appreciate their time to post and reply on this forum, I am doubtful that reading their posting here for an hour will benefit me more then if I were to go see them for a session.

If you pay 100 dollars for a one-on-one lesson that last 1 hour, as a student, will you spend Ten * 1hr on the driving range to get the 100 to pay off???
I ask this as most people will spend the 100, take the 1 hours and head out to the course for 18 holes and play badly and blame the 1 hour they had with the coach and proclaim the 100 the student spent a waste of money. So here's the thought. Spend your FREE time talking to a coach you may want to take lessons with. If he charges you for the chat, you got the wrong guy. But if you think a 1 lesson session will pay off, well, buy a magazine, it will last longer. Tiger has a coach still, shouldn't you?

uncle, you trying to save the world ah?

"limpeh knows smoking no good, so you cannot smoke" mentality?

wah, lao hero!

but if i mati mati want to smoke leh? What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:57 pm

mUAr_cHEe wrote:
mr tang, u very the humble leh.

oh king of up and down...

i am not worthy...

pls la bro, from yr swing i know u can play better... even at range i see liao. Remb u guys ask me want to warm up? i reject coz i scare sia sway... Razz

i think we juz gota try to enjoy more lo, regardless of our swing or skill.... can't possible we play with a pro and expect to play like him rite?..

cheers...

juz went to range... kaoz.... very bad....
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redbull
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:00 pm

Right_sided_coach wrote:
Tips are not gonna help anyone as they are very general and not specific to all swings.

then you come to this forum for what?

to advertise your RSS?

or to announce to the world how well your RSS pattern pros were doing...on the First day of any event? only conveniently disappeared when your pros couldn't make cut?

and now you are teaming with the forumers to whack a fellow pro? well done sir!

we are not babies. we can decide what is good or bad What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:17 pm

redbull wrote:
Right_sided_coach wrote:
Tips are not gonna help anyone as they are very general and not specific to all swings.

then you come to this forum for what?

to advertise your RSS?

or to announce to the world how well your RSS pattern pros were doing...on the First day of any event? only conveniently disappeared when your pros couldn't make cut?

and now you are teaming with the forumers to whack a fellow pro? well done sir!

we are not babies. we can decide what is good or bad What a Face

I came here to try and help golfers on my own time FOC. I offer a Free Swing analysis
I am informing golfers about the RSS as not many are aware of it and I think it is an option on how to play golf
As for our pros, Scott Barr 5th at Brunei Open last week, Rod Pampling 8th on US Tour this week, Gavin Coles 3rd last week Nationwide. What cuts are they missing?
I am not teaming with any forumers. I think TGM is very knowleagable and I learnt alot from his posts as well. Who are you refering to?
And yes you can decide yourself whats good or bad. As I said this is the teaching method I use, take it or leave it.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:17 pm

Hi Redbull, RSS is really useful if u seriously believe it and practise hard...

Ever since I change to RSS, I personally felt my game improved. Yes, my distance is shorter by 1 club length but who cares when my stroke get lesser on green? My ball dun fly all directions anymore, my impact is more consistant and even my shorter length is consistantly on the same distance for each club.

But all this is only possible is you seriously believe and practise on it. I use to range once a week, now I do it 3-4 times a week after I converted to RSS.

There are many golfers who learn something new and then practise only once a month or even once a year then complaint that the coach sucks... I use to be one too... But it is a individual game in golf which you need to help yourselve if you want to improved.

All the advise here is only meant for our advise and knowledges... whether it do work or not, it is very individual and also depend on how much effort you spent to try it out...

There are some many things in golf for us to learn so naturally, there will be many ways to swing.... but as long as it work for you, it is the best swing...

So let's instead of SHOOTING each other, why not we spend time enjoying our stay here in this wonderful forum??
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:07 am

Wow, Bro Shotah...scarily leh...let's fight it out on 21/8 same flight lah..

I really hope all Pros in this Forum will respect each other and earn some respect from the golfers here...pls dun fight...Ithink each school have each own merits..I learn Kungfu and Martial Arts and i do know which school is good for what and ultimately, there is one thing in common...for self defense and well being of the body

Same for religion...each have it's own teaching but all religion will only teach you good...
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:28 pm

4dtoto wrote:

I really hope all Pros in this Forum will respect each other and earn some respect from the golfers here...pls dun fight...

As far as I could see it is not Pro's fighting... but others fighting with Pro's..

Anyway maybe I can clear some air as it appears I am too blame for all the carnage....

I recently made a comment to someone that TGM was coaching somewhere he was not registered to coach...

It was a toungue in cheek comment, as the people he was with was his brother and Nietsu, and I know no money was changing hands he was giving tips the same as you guys do on range...

I should not have made the comment, but as I said it was a joke, and all I did was tarnish a good man's (and coaches) reputation. And for that I will apologise to TGM in person.

TGM is certified, just the same as PGTR and GTF and countless others in Singapore. They ply their trade, so does he. There is no governing body here so you have Cert you can teach.

The above may sound condecing But I went through one of these courses when I was younger and at the end I gave the certification back and embarked on PGA quest.

TGM's training was longer than a week, and his knowledge of the golf swing is excellent.

TGM IS allowed to coach at jurong he has been my collegue there for over a year.

I support TGM in his teachings, I made the comment to him that he needs to explain things a little clearer in his posts but that is no reason to attack and further tarnish him.

In my opinion he does not need to justify himself to you guys, as you will not be his students why bother replying to obvious all out abuse....

So if anyone has further comment or wants to abuse further please PM email or call me.... TGM is a good man good coach and does not deserve this action when all he was trying to do was impart knowledge.

Allen
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:34 pm

Yah.. all clear up liao.... cheers.. no more fighting liao...I see the rainbow liao..

Let's move on... cheers cheers

Pro Shorthitter, dun abuse your golf clubs..Ok ? Dun hit too hard...hehehehehe

So now u are in the East Side liao...
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:36 pm

Yessir closer to home so can get to beer shop quicker.....
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:36 pm

SH - good post and thanks for clearing the air.

I agree with 4dT. Time to move on. Let's play golf Smile (I think if everyone in the world played golf, there'll be no wars etc)

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:37 pm

thanks kiwi for the clarification and helping out on the forum
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:38 pm

missmoon wrote:
thanks kiwi for the clarification and helping out on the forum

Anytime Moonie. Sorry I cause trouble but that is Kiwi's job....
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:02 am

Getting back to swing plane, I believe for a consistent, repeatable swing, ideally the position of the shaft half way back on the backswing will point at the ball

This however should also be in conjunction with the correct body angles when viewed from the front

On the downswing the plane/path will resemble the back swing

As will the body angles from the front view


It is possible to have a swing that is on plane but you will still not be produce proper impact. That would be if you have the incorrect body angles or the closed or open clubface.
Here is an on plane swing, as demonstarted using a plane board however the club face is closed

Here is an example of another on plane swing using the explanar however the body angles are incorrect.


So it is very important to consider all the variables and not just get so focused on the swing plane. Plane boards, explanar are good teaching tools however they can be a little misleading if the other things are incorrect. I believe by having correct body angles, you will be on plane/path without even thinking about it. There are also many great players that have variations in swing plane but they get the most important part right which is the downswing and impact as demo'd by TGM. Trevino, Furyk, and many othet greats had these types of variations. We would not teach to swing like Furyk, but it can work with enough practice and match up moves. Hope this helps. Great golfing to you all!!
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:01 am

Technospaz wrote:
SH - good post and thanks for clearing the air.

I agree with 4dT. Time to move on. Let's play golf Smile (I think if everyone in the world played golf, there'll be no wars etc)

Yes!!! Golf!!! No war pls!!! Golf is good!!! Cos can play from 6-60 yrs old!!! ops... Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:16 am

jtek wrote:
Technospaz wrote:
SH - good post and thanks for clearing the air.

I agree with 4dT. Time to move on. Let's play golf Smile (I think if everyone in the world played golf, there'll be no wars etc)

Yes!!! Golf!!! No war pls!!! Golf is good!!! Cos can play from 6-60 yrs old!!! ops... Razz


But why only till 60 yrs old... i have friends still golfing at around 75 yrs old..
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:10 am

Ai yo yo! Just nicer number to reference lah...

Okie okie... how abt golf for 6-75 lah... ha ha ha Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:51 am

RSC, I think that's great information. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that one can only analyze the swing plane effectively if there are pictures or videos of his/her swing. It's difficult, if not impossible, to do so on your own at the range.

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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:56 am

Technospaz wrote:
RSC, I think that's great information. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that one can only analyze the swing plane effectively if there are pictures or videos of his/her swing. It's difficult, if not impossible, to do so on your own at the range.

Good point. This is why I believe video and mirrors are important. The main point of the post is to highlight the importance of body angles and how they can give you the correct plane/path without even trying to.
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:56 am

Right_sided_coach wrote:
Technospaz wrote:
RSC, I think that's great information. But the more I think about it, the more I realize that one can only analyze the swing plane effectively if there are pictures or videos of his/her swing. It's difficult, if not impossible, to do so on your own at the range.

Good point. This is why I believe video and mirrors are important. The main point of the post is to highlight the importance of body angles and how they can give you the correct plane/path without even trying to.

Best to just pay you a visit for some quick tips Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Understanding the Swing Plane   Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:36 am

The most talked about swing plane in golf - The great Jim Furyk. His swing looks like a monkey falling out of a tree but what a great player and proof that there are many swings that work. I refer to such swings as LAX i.e "changing planes alot" and swinging like this is not recommended.
Red line = back swing, Yellow line = down swing


The reason it works is that it goes back steep , but comes down on a flat, inside path.
The death move is the opposite. One that goes back flat and then comes down steep. Most amateurs that slice the ball are notorious for this.

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